Speaker 0:
Hello and welcome to this. Global Women in finance. Master class. I'm joined today by Natalie Phillips, deputy managing director at 91.

Speaker 0:
Marine Watson, Chief investment officer at Old Mutual multi managers as well as Sheri Diers, Chief executive officer at Prescient Investment Management. Welcome to you all.

Speaker 0:
Thank you. Thank you, mam. So, Natalie, I'm gonna kick off with you. Why has there historically been an absence of women in power positions globally, particularly within the asset management industry?

Speaker 1:
Yes, I think. Um, Thanks, Chloe. Well, I Firstly, I think it's it's It's from the reading and the research I've done.

Speaker 1:
Um, I think just to give the South African industry some comfort, this is not a South African only problem. Um, but as you've said, Chloe, this is a global challenge. We face, um, quite interestingly out of the recent Deloitte women at work study. Um, where they basically screened, um, over 5000 women from across 10 regions. Um, exactly the same conclusion was

Speaker 1:
found. You know that that there's actually been a reduction in the amount of representation of women in senior positions, so I think it's quite important that starting point. Um, in response to your question. Um, I think it's been a combination of factors, but I also think today ahead of Women's Month. Um, there's also been a lot of progress, um, over the last 10, 50

Speaker 1:
years. So let us pat ourselves on the shoulders that there has been progress, but absolutely there is still so much work to be done. I think one of the key areas is is as Deloitte's quoted in the women at work. Peace is that we need more gender equality leaders, um, in in organisations and and that's actually been lacking. So many women are not

Speaker 1:
in senior positions still, you know, way too low. But I think it is the impact that the study shows of, of what women in leadership positions have made on an organisation and the ripple effect of that of others joining as aspiring to be in those positions. I think that is something that we need more of, so we almost need, as I call them, gender equality warriors.

Speaker 1:
It doesn't have to be, you know, feminists in the firm. Absolutely not, but I do think there's a responsibility on us on this panel and other women in the industry to really pave the way because that's really where the impact is. You know, in the in, in in the one note of yours cloth, you speak about sponsorship versus mentorship and the differences. Um, but I think it is really about bringing this to life

Speaker 1:
and and us as female leaders to actually pave the way, Um, because it has a huge impact on encouraging other women to follow suit.

Speaker 0:
No, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing. Natalie, Man, I'm gonna bring you in here. Perhaps we can just delve into the reasons as to why women might feel inadequate to be able to progress within their careers and the biases that might hinder their their, um, professional progression.

Speaker 0:
Thanks, Chloe. I'm gonna start with a bit of a controversial example. I remember having a conversation with a male portfolio manager in our industry, some while back and in passing. He made the comment that as teams have become more diverse, his frustration has been that people don't speak up more that analysts aren't pushing ideas more,

Speaker 0:
You know, in comparison to what you know, his experience had been

Speaker 0:
in the past. Now I'm not making a judgement on that comment. But it made me think about what are the dynamics at play? Um, just in that in in that dynamic in in their team. And I think it plays out in the industry, you know, overall, and I think it's this tug of war between

Speaker 0:
the internal and the external. So if we look at the external first, if you look OK, take another step back. I think we generalise a lot about men and women like they're all the same. But there are women that have succeeded in this industry, and I think it's certain men that have been attracted to this industry. So if you look at the kind of men we've had, they're generally very competitive. Um, they've had role models, you know. They come with a certain,

Speaker 0:
um, level of confidence, and they've created a cultural base in which women now move into. And I don't think there's always an understanding from all men in the industry. How inclusive, Um, the environment is that you know, for themselves that that they've created, so that's where that comment came from. It's like everybody can speak up why they're not speaking up, but a lack of understanding that

Speaker 0:
the cultural element is not there, and a lack of understanding that it's not may be comfortable. So

Speaker 0:
it's not an unwillingness that people must contribute. And I think that is maybe contrary to some of the thinking that that that people have. So that's the external element. And then there's the internal element, um, of where people feel like they can speak up you, you know? And that's the contradiction. Um, and it's I. I think those are the kind of complexities that we are trying to think about today in solving this issue.

Speaker 0:
Thank you very much, man. She

Speaker 0:
um yes. Just to add to that, um, I agree with me. I think it does go back to, um, company culture and actually manager culture. So whoever you are learning from, um, they Either you have the perception that they're creating the opportunity for you to grow or not. So sometimes I think the biggest stumbling blocks

Speaker 0:
for many women is mid career. When you get to that point where you want to progress and if you are not given a shot at a senior position, then you leave because you don't believe you stand a shot at getting it. So I think that's the big challenge for us to kind of drop the responsibility down into the managers, bringing the talent through the pipeline.

Speaker 0:
Absolutely, Sheri. And I'm going to continue with you. The E, the EPPF or more specifically, the Eskom Pension and Provident Fund recently announced the release of their qualitative study on diversity within the asset management industry in South Africa. What is the objective of these types of qualitative studies and what are they seeking to achieve?

Speaker 0:
Yes, it's it's interesting, because in our industry we always have, um, quantitative studies. We we numbers people, so we we generally take our lead from that. So this was quite different. And I think in many ways catalysed quite a bit of conversation, which I think is actually the point, because by and large you want a deeper understanding

Speaker 0:
of women's stories and and what their reality is to get to where they were. Because the study focused on women that have progressed through the industry and acknowledges that it didn't really touch on women who have left the industry because our challenge is also not that much. Getting women into the industry but actually retaining them. So it's catalysed quite a bit of conversation, and there will be quite a lot of talk around it. But I'm hoping that if we get a deeper understanding of it,

Speaker 0:
then we can ask the right questions. And you can measure what matters, because I think sometimes we we see the same statistics, the same questions. We talk about the same subjects over and over, and we don't quite understand. Um, I think the the study's um headline was, uh, where are all the women and and what is it that we can't get two women to join the industry? So I think it's just part of, uh, a conversation sparking some insight. Um, and hopefully more comes of it.

Speaker 0:
Natalie. So we've spoken a lot about the psychological traits that might, um, external and internal. That Marine had highlighted, um, in women progressing within the professional, um, asset management industry. But perhaps we can look at what would support a more proactive approach from women. Um, in applying and engaging in the application process of a senior position.

Speaker 1:
Yes. So I think, um, you know, like, Nina might say something a bit more. Uh uh, unconventional. Um, but I think first and foremost when you're applying for a role in an asset management business,

Speaker 1:
I do think it's also the onus on you as a candidate, be it male or female to do your work in terms of trying to understand the culture, the organisation, its history and how it works. So I think sometimes we so often find when we're recruiting people, you know, they they don't actually sometimes know that much about the firm. They know they want to be in asset management. They know the

Speaker 1:
performance track record or the signature or the perception of the organisation. But actually there's a lot of work you can do beforehand in terms of and particularly if it is a public company like ourselves. Um, you know where you have information around. You know this company is a signatory to the women in Finance charter. How many women have they got on their board? You know that information, I think

Speaker 1:
you know, is not always, but often I think it's it's the onus is on the individual to do the work and say, Is this the company that I choose to be part of. So I think that's the first point. Is throwing the onus back on the person actually

Speaker 1:
applying for the role and understanding that some organisations have their culture have their particular signature? Um um And and being aware of that, I think secondly, what can make it more attractive? I think what's been revolutionary is you know what we've all spoken about a lot is this work flexibility, the hybrid work environment? Um, that covid has almost gifted us with, you know, And if you

Speaker 1:
again read, there's a fascinating article I read, uh, by the Roy Park Institute, happy to share it. But again, the huge impact that the hybrid work environment has had of, actually, statistics showing, you know, more women are staying because there is a more flexible environment. Obviously, there's lots of debate in lots of studies, even the Deloitte study, Um, in terms of you know, some women feel they have to come to work

Speaker 1:
even if there is the hybrid environment. Um, because they're going to be excluded from meetings. And there were actually stats around that, um, they intentionally going to be excluded. Um, but I still think it's a big step. Now that we have got this more flexible work environment, it comes in different degrees. But it is at least much more flexible than what we had pre-covid. So I think that has really is helping women

Speaker 1:
and say Sure, you know, I can do this and still, you know, be a mom at home and have all my other responsibilities. So I think that has been, you know, fantastic. And you do Look at some of the recent stats. There is AAA return of, you know, retention of women. The numbers are still not good enough. Um um, but I do think, you know, that has helped. Um and then I think the third thing is is

Speaker 1:
finding an organisation that you can affiliate yourself with. So obviously, if you are gonna join an organisation where you see that the chief investment officer, you know of a significant number of assets under the custodianship in man's role or Rene's role, You know, uh, you know, CEO,

Speaker 1:
You know, that is very impactful. The role models, um, that individuals see when they join a firm. Um, and I think that is something I will say, you know, having been at 91 for 26 years of my life to say we are proud of. You know, we have got 50% of our board

Speaker 1:
are women, and we have, in terms of the women in finance charter, you know, we're aiming for, you know, 35% women. We've currently got 33 in senior positions, uh, by 2. 24. So those numbers don't seem exciting. But again, I think as long as that trajectory continues on the increase,

Speaker 1:
but absolutely from the EPPF report, you know, we've got, what, 17.8% Women in, in in finance? Um, I mean, that is just too low. Um so as long as the the the point, the direction of travel and the rate of of travel is in the right direction, I think we are on track.

Speaker 1:
Absolutely.

Speaker 0:
So I just want to understand what the perceived challenges are then that need to be addressed both in the local and global asset management industry. Um, on this transition toward, um, gender parity.

Speaker 0:
But I think the EPPF. Report is gonna be an important catalyst in the South African environment. Just this week, I spoke to a portfolio manager that said, you know, they want more women in their team.

Speaker 0:
Um, but when they've put out, you know, um, job specs, they're just not getting the the applications. And I think there's this disconnect in understanding that, you know, the industry is saying we want women, and yet, you know, they they can't find them or they're not supporting them in the in the way to keep them.

Speaker 0:
So I think the research that is being done now that is more qualitative in nature is giving you a greater insight than than the numbers can in terms of understanding that complexity and also understanding why, why things aren't changing and what we must do differently.

Speaker 0:
So what I was encouraged about with the E PE PPF report is that the people who sent it to me were all men, you know, have I seen this and we must talk about this. So I I think it's gonna be a catalyst for people thinking around the complexity because we've often spoken about the numbers.

Speaker 0:
But I think people really need to understand what are the things behind the scenes that are gonna that are gonna differ. And I think when it comes to recruitment.

Speaker 0:
From my experience, it's not like people do not want women. But if you don't get applicants, what do you do? Then? I think that's the question. Do you just say, Well, we didn't get the applicants? We just gonna look at what we have Or do you say, Well, this is not good enough. We need to go find people. I mean, that's a very difficult, um, question. But

Speaker 0:
I think those are the kinds of questions that we need to start asking. What do we need to do differently? Um, to really change this dynamic?

Speaker 0:
Absolutely. I see you raised your hand there, but I'd also like to understand what industry initiatives have come to the fore to support this, um, the application process, perhaps. Yes. I just wanted to touch on a few points that made, which I think are quite important. So I think when you, um,

Speaker 0:
inquiring about a company culture, I think that he also spoke about it, um, to ask about, um the your promotion and hiring practises, because I also think that while we struggle to get CV S from, um women to to, we struggle to attract women to the industry. Women don't always, um,

Speaker 0:
ask the questions up front. Do you have a transparent promotion process? Um, what are my career development prospects here? Um and then some of the the, um,

Speaker 0:
you know, we talk about creating an inclusive culture, but I think some of the subconscious biases that women have experienced and in my 20 odd years, um, I've had a lot of respect at precedent, and there's been opportunity for promotion. But I have seen women who, um, suffer from, I guess, imposter syndrome. And they get confirmed when they join a a cutthroat industry.

Speaker 0:
Um, because you you you want to feel heard. Everyone wants a voice. But when you get cut off mid sentence or you are feel like your opinion doesn't matter. Um, then then it kind of, um, confirms the fact that you don't You're not part of the story. Uh, your your voice doesn't matter. So when you're joining a company, you really have to to to try to get to know and understand and align with people because

Speaker 0:
people say we like diversity. Is that lip service or is that real? Um, are you allowed to fail. Are you allowed to explore? Are you allowed to innovate? You know, those are the kind of things that matter to people. And once we start getting over that, then the sort of gender issues, um, kind of fall by the wayside because everyone has a fair shot. Uh, because diversity is goes sort of beyond gender equality.

Speaker 0:
I just wanted to say that about that. And I think industry initiatives are quite important because we have to build a talent, uh, pipeline

Speaker 0:
and I I've got two daughters. The ones uh, 21 and the other one's 17. And when I asked them to join the finance industry, um, my old asked, Do I look like a male? Do I wear a suit? Um, unfortunately, I in my career used to wear suits

Speaker 0:
as I was progressing. I can and and it's it's not good. You have to be yourself, you know? So, um, we need to do something different as an asset management industry to to get girls to to join or women to join. Um, because, uh, not much is known about what we do. And really that we do have a good, uh, purpose. We manage people's savings, and that is quite a privilege. Um, but people don't quite understand that

Speaker 0:
often get lumped with investment banks, where the thinking is that it's quite cut, cut throat, and it's all about profit and the bottom line. So that's plainly not true. So there are, I think industry initiatives play a massive role, um, in creating awareness. So the C FA does a Day of the girl, an initiative that was started last year, and that's had some amazing results. I think this year there will be 40 asset managers participating in the initiative.

Speaker 0:
And, uh, on average, it's about five girls that go to different asset managers, sometimes even more. And they learn about careers in investment management. What subjects to study. They have some job shadow experience, and that really helps to inform them about what, um, asset management is all about. Um and I think the the initiative actually won the MA. Um, innovation award. Um, it was announced, I think, last week just for having such a massive impact, Um, on driving awareness and change?

Speaker 0:
Absolutely. Thank you very much. Uh, Sheri. So Natalie Sherine mentioned impostor syndrome. What exactly is it. And then are women more susceptible to the psychological belief than what their male counterparts are?

Speaker 1:
So So I understand Impostor syndrome and reading the definition last night, just to be sure is is it's a person who's got a feeling of inadequacy. Um um, and don't think they are good enough at a role. Um, and I would

Speaker 1:
I would say that I've seen that in my career with men and women. You know it, it's it's not necessarily as obvious with A with a man, but, um, I I've definitely seen imposter syndrome, uh, across gender. So I that's that's my experience.

Speaker 1:
Parents I could be wrong from what statistics say, um, but I don't think it's a it's it's It's a female specific, specific or biassed to to To To women. So So So that's my view around it. Um, but this is in, I think, in any highly competitive industry, um, you know, be it in form

Speaker 1:
number one, tennis portfolio management, uh, dealing with clients winning mandates. It is a highly competitive industry, and and South Africa specifically so naturally, you know, I think you're gonna have quite a bit of impostor syndrome deep down, Um, with with with individuals, You know, I'm always surprised

Speaker 1:
how success So how many? How how so many successful people, um, still suffer from that sort of insecurity or imposter syndrome? But that's just my my perspective.

Speaker 0:
Absolutely so perhaps not, uh, any differentiation on imposter syndrome between, um, men and women in the, um, asset management industry, but perhaps a confidence gap.

Speaker 0:
And perhaps, man, you can, uh, comment with regards to a con potential confidence gap within the within the asset management industry?

Speaker 0:
Um, no, I think that's that's definitely an issue just to add to the impostor syndrome. I think, you know, I agree totally with Natalie in the sense that I think for men and women it it's there for both. I think maybe for women. We've been taught a little bit more to question ourselves, and maybe we verbalise it a bit more. But having worked in some

Speaker 0:
become male teams and being the woman, that's our observer. It's a different dynamic when you see how men interact with each other. Um, so I think there are a lot of dynamics for men as well that you you know, we don't we don't speak about. But I think where it does affect women is, um I think in two things perfectionism and risk taking. Uh, I

Speaker 0:
perfectionism again is not just a female pre, but I think there is a maybe a higher probability that women will kind of tend to want to be more, um, perfectionist. And I think risk taking is a big

Speaker 0:
issue in our industry as well. And I think it relates to the first question around. You know why they've, you know, not more women in portfolio management role. And it's that ability not just to take the risk, but to show that you're willing to take the risk. Um, and that could come from, you know. So all these things impact impact on what you call that confidence gap. Um, where you're not sure whether you belong? Um, whether you can do this, Um,

Speaker 0:
yeah, it just raises questions. I think in your mind about

Speaker 0:
that. Yeah, that I think we need to deal with if we want to see more women in these kind of roles.

Speaker 0:
And so she for you, Um, as a member of the C FA um, Society of South Africa board. Um There were some interesting stats that were raised recently about only 18.5% of C FA charter holders being, um female, which is in line with the global average. But is this global average reflective of gender parity? I don't think so. So,

Speaker 0:
um

Speaker 0:
um, it's it's definitely not reflective. I think there's also been a steady drop off as with the, uh, city wire, um, of a female report. I think the the stats in the last few years have actually shown a drop off in females. Um, coming through the C FA side, I think on the charted accounting side, because I'm also a charted accountant there. The stats are more encouraging. In SAI, I think 21,000 females compared to 31,000. Um, males,

Speaker 0:
Um, I'm not sure exactly what the dynamic is is about When it comes to C FA From a global perspective, I'm not sure whether there must be some indication around, um, people wanting to study C FA. But perhaps there are other qualifications that are out there that are that people are finding more relevant, like CQFFRM.

Speaker 0:
Um, there are a lot more, um, things for people to study and the asset management industry is not as rigid as it used to be. So to be able to study development, finance or data science, there's a lot more opportunity within investment teams. Um, especially those, um, companies that look for diversity. Um, so the C FA qualification is not It used to be the bedrock of the industry. And I'm a massive, uh, promoter of it. I think it gives you exactly the right qualification,

Speaker 0:
um, and drowning that you need when you want to manage people's money or be an analyst. So, um, yeah, it's quite, uh, baffling to me. But the dynamics also through covid have been quite hard. I think so. If you're a I did my C FA after I had kids. And

Speaker 0:
when you're working and you're studying and you're going through a pandemic, that might have an impact. Uh, so there are many factors at play. There's also cost factors at play. Um, these international qualifications are quite expensive. Um, and it takes you quite a while to do them.

Speaker 0:
So I do think that you can bridge that gap by getting more support from companies. Uh so for at, for example, we encourage people to study C FA we give decent leave. We actually pay for it twice because you recognise that it's hard for people to do it. So we have a support programme in place

Speaker 0:
to to help people financially and to assist them with studying. So those type of practises, I mean, there's just one example. I know there are other companies that actually do lessons. Um, on a Saturday, those type of things, all help to support, uh, people who are working and studying because I think that's the challenge with the these professional designations.

Speaker 0:
Absolutely. So, um, nania I want to understand. Then what? Regulation, um, is supporting women inclusion. And what is the importance then, of quotas?

Speaker 1:
No.

Speaker 1:
Well, obviously, we've got the, you know, we've got the much talked to employment equity, uh, sector targets that sort of have been released. There's a lot of discussion around that. But even if we go back, you know, when you use the word affirmative action, you know, when that started in South Africa, many, many years ago, prior to you know, our industry being as established as as it is, Um you know, I think that has helped. And

Speaker 1:
obviously the FSC a scorecard has helped because obviously the specific targets that companies must meet in terms of women representation. So I think that has enabled a lot for the industry. Um, and and I think that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think in terms of the recent employment equity chart, I think that why there is quite a lot of debate is about practicality versus reality, you know? Is it practically possible to implement

Speaker 1:
these targets within the timeframe that's been given? And is it actually gonna lead to, you know, the best possible outcome for all South Africans? Um, so you know, I think that's my only sort of statement. I'll make about the recent, uh, sort of numbers that have been released and are specifically, you know, targeted to to to provinces even. Um, so it's just about is this really practical to implement in our industry? I mean,

Speaker 1:
is there enough talent that is gonna come through as quickly to fulfil those positions? Um, and I think that's just one statement I'll make, but in terms of so I am supportive of, you know, and and in South Africa, I think it has helped us have more women in the workplace because, yes, senior position, the numbers are low. Uh, if even if you look at the C FA numbers, as Shereen said, boards of companies

Speaker 1:
still too low. But overall, um, and I'm not saying this is for us to make ourselves feel good, But overall, there are undoubtedly more women in the workplace, um, than they were 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. Um, and I look just at our company, you know, the percentage of women versus men in the overall compliment of the organisation. Um, obviously, the question is, you know, why are there only 33% women in senior positions and not 50?

Speaker 1:
Um, and and And that is the second point. We obviously we need to do that work. So So I mean from, I think slightly off piece. But I do think if we look at at globally, where um ESG and I want to touch on this because it, you know, globally, if we look at the UK and Europe, where we have got clients and and offices, there is a regulatory requirement for your particular investment strategy to comply with the SSFD.

Speaker 1:
Our requirements. Um, it's not in South Africa yet, but I do think ESG and I see the impact in the regulatory environment in Europe and the UK has attracted impact. ESG has attracted more women, you know, just from some of the initial numbers I've seen. So I think that's been good. Um, because it's It's It's I see many more female fund managers running global environment funds if you look globally, um, in

Speaker 1:
involved in in sustain the sustainability component of an investment team. And I think that does play to the softer side. You know, um, you know, I think we are quite empathetic, uh, women generally, and, um, and something we can relate to. And I think that is also being We mustn't underestimate how this impacts space and bringing it to South Africa, you know, seeing women working on private equity infrastructure and investment teams. I mean, there's a lot of women

Speaker 1:
that have joined those particular teams or a sort of an ESG component in an investment team, and I think that is very positive because I think it is. Women feel purpose. And if you read, you know, some of the studies. You know, women want to feel What is the purpose of the organisation that I'm working for?

Speaker 1:
Um, I think that's also an important component for the genes and the millennials. So I do think that that that's quite positive and to see how this unfolds in South Africa, Uh, in terms of more women being attractive to the sort of the impact space. Thank

Speaker 0:
you very much, Nathalie. So meine I wanna bring you in here. What, then, is the essence of inclusion? Does it purely mean just getting a seat at the boardroom table, or does it go further,

Speaker 0:
then? Simply that for me, inclusion is about

Speaker 0:
rec recognising yourself as a person rather than a man or a woman. I think when inclusion is really working, it's We're all just people here to, you know, to do the best for our clients and to make the business work. Um, I think there's a

Speaker 0:
you know, I maybe that's a pie in the sky kind of comment, but I think that's where we're working towards that. Everybody feels like they just contributing, and they're not conscious

Speaker 0:
of their differences. You know, across the spectrum that people have a right to speak that they yeah, that they just at the table because they have the right skills, um, to be there

Speaker 0:
in terms of some of I think the underlying shifts that is, you know, that is helping that in society. Um, if I just look at the a lot of the men that I work with, they have, um, partners that are also working that are accomplished, and I can see men's attitudes to women have shifted as a result. So, um, in in the workplace, I I'm finding that there is a lot.

Speaker 0:
There's quite a big a big shift in people's attitudes. I don't think it's as different as we think. I mean, I'm not saying the challenges we we facing in this industry are not real, but for the women that are there, I think there's already been a shift in terms of that inclusivity. But it's not in in every forum. I mean,

Speaker 0:
I've sat in forums where I'm the only woman and I feel completely included. Um, and I don't feel the fact that I'm a woman and then there are other environments where, where that is not the case and I think it's to ask where you know what creates those kind of differences and what we must shift. Um, in that dynamic.

Speaker 0:
Absolutely. Shereen Yes. I. I agree with Marine. I feel quite strongly about

Speaker 0:
the issue of gender equality eclipsing and going into the topic of diversity because that's the beauty and the power of, um, diversity. When everyone feels like they have a voice and everyone feels heard

Speaker 0:
and everyone has a fair shot at it, Um, that's when you feel included. Um And if you feel that someone cares about your career and they hear what you're saying and they recognise where you come from as well, we're not robots. So when I show up every day, I come from somewhere, and I think while we sort of all have a common purpose, um, and we have a goal. We are brought to the table because we bring a different thinking so you don't want to foster her mentality. And if you say you don't want that, then you need to make people

Speaker 0:
have a view. You listen to them, you accept it. Um, and you you come to a decision. I mean, I know investment management is, it's You have to be nimble, and you have to make decisions quite fast. But if you have robust forums and processes that, um, create the space for people to learn and innovate, then you can only get better outcomes. So I do agree that the the discussion goes beyond gender. Um, the the issue for us is just that we don't have enough, uh, women at the table yet, but moving in the right direction,

Speaker 0:
Absolutely. So, Natalie, then do you believe or have you observed that this gender diversity is simply a tick box exercise or requirements in the industry? And how do we, um, embrace this gender? Um transformation or this transformation toward gender parity?

Speaker 1:
Well, I don't think

Speaker 1:
the gender of diversity is just a tick box box exercise. If I look, you know, at the women on this panel and Jennifer included who, who I know Well, um, I mean, number one we, you know, we're doing, we've got proper deliverables. We've got proper responsibilities. There's work to be done. So it's not just putting us in positions to tick boxes. Absolutely not. I mean that

Speaker 1:
that's evidential. Um uh, looking at the role of someone like Sonia the CIO at EPPF who, you know, has got a proven track record in the industry. Um, you know, of building products in her days at momentum? Uh, managing teams. I mean, that is evidence. So So I think the tick the box ticking

Speaker 1:
on the gender side Absolutely not. Um And I think you know, we really under underrate ourselves. Um um by not countering the the statements around box ticking because it's it's absolutely not if you look at the women in their positions and the responsibilities that they had. Um, I think

Speaker 1:
I think just about looking at the future, um, in terms of you know how how we get more women excited about our industry. Um, just one point is to say, I think the other thing is to, you know, more girl of the day, more awareness. And that's what EPPF also goes on. More education, more awareness. So I think we've got some affiliate organisations. C FA does a lot of good work as well,

Speaker 1:
but I think we can all do much, much more in terms of many more initiatives for the industry. You know, we've We've got the physique or we've got a couple. But I think within an organisation you need to be very intentional about, uh, having your own proprietary programme encouraging women, not just the mentorship. And then secondly, I think is also taking the risk. You know, we

Speaker 1:
you know, I a big risk was taken on me. I was 25 26 years old. You know, I, I didn't know that much. Um and and we've got somebody who's now on our global Exco Khadija, uh, you know, one of the youngest member of our global expo, Um, absolutely incredible at what she does and what she's delivered. And we, you know, we we put a young person into our global Exco

Speaker 1:
because she delivered, but also because she brings a different perspective, you know, she's a younger generation and and the impact she's made on our, you know, global has been phenomenal, you know? So I think somebody she must also take risks within the firm. And so I'm gonna take a risk on the this person. I'm gonna take a bet on them. Um, you know, and and and And give them that opportunity and then wait for 34 years and say, OK, they need to do this. They need to do that. Then I'll be ready.

Speaker 1:
Um, so that's my two sets.

Speaker 0:
Thank you very much for sharing that with us, Natalie, but no, I want to get this understanding of the difference between sponsorship and mentorship. What is the importance of these two, within supporting the retention of female talents.

Speaker 0:
Thanks, Chloe. That's a I think those two terms have become more widely used. And it's really made me think of where sponsorship has really mattered in my own, um, career. And we were speaking earlier about the confidence gap. And I remember, um, when I was much younger in the industry, um, I was pushed into managing money. Um, way before I thought I was ready,

Speaker 0:
and that was somebody who kind of said, You actually have what it takes and do it, and they took a risk on me and that defined my career going forward. I maybe wouldn't have been bold enough to say, you know, to put up my own hand and sponsorship is about people around you, um,

Speaker 0:
you know, that are senior to you, taking a risk on you putting you in the spotlight, saying that they believe in you and giving you an opportunity to showcase yourself. Um,

Speaker 0:
I think it's in those situations where you are put in a position of risk, um, which sometimes feel uncomfortable where people can really see what you have to offer. It's, you know, in the day to day life in an office, you know you can you know, you're just doing what you do. But it's when somebody gives you that opportunity to stand out. Um, it really makes a difference. And in the EPPF report, they said, You know, most women that were interviewed cited that

Speaker 0:
their biggest sponsors had actually been men. Um, you know that had that had, you know, kind of pushed their their career forward. So I think it's important to talk about sponsorship. And, um, that's a conversation, you know that I think we must have more and more because it is happening.

Speaker 0:
But for men in particular, to understand how they can really help and senior women in the industry to progress the careers of women by giving them those, like subtle opportunities, um, to to to kind of, yeah, just go forward and and and take a step forward.

Speaker 0:
So mentorship I I find I think trickier. I. I think you've got to find the right mentor. You know, there are a lot of mentorship programmes, but it's about whether that clicks and whether somebody you know can help you along in your career. But I think mentorship is also incredibly important in having a sounding board. Um,

Speaker 0:
you know, when you have those doubts when you don't know where to go to have someone that you trust, um, that that that you can go to and that that can, you know, kind of guide you in your career. So I think both of those elements mentorship and sponsorship are incredibly important. Absolutely. And thank you so much for sharing through. What are your comments? Um, surrounding mentorship and sponsorship. And perhaps you can share with us, Um, your your sponsorship or mentorship journey.

Speaker 0:
I I've I've been at prescient for 18 years. Um, and I. I didn't get to where I am by accident. I think it's been a

Speaker 0:
I've had a lot of mentors and sponsors in my career. Um, even when I did articles, I am by nature, a person that will show up,

Speaker 0:
uh, with a little book at any meeting. And I will take the best of what I like in someone and leave the the bad stuff. So I'm not necessarily. I'm quite, um, internally driven. Um, and I think I can learn a lot from from many people. So I can't say that there's one person on my journey That's, um, helped me to progress, but I've had a lot of support

Speaker 0:
and recognition from, um, again, un men, uh, within our company and within our industry. Um, And when I was given the shot, actually, to be, um, CEO of present investment management at the time, The recruitment, um, brief was that we're gonna find someone that has gravitas. That's a captain of industry.

Speaker 0:
Um, and a few people came through the door, including, uh, Thabo lotti, actually, at the time, um, I mean, he had bigger ambitions to buy into our business, so I think we were punching way above our weight, approaching him to be the CEO at the time.

Speaker 0:
Uh, but in the end, uh, somehow and I was interviewing some of these people, and, um, in the end, I got a call from my chairman, our founder and Billy, our group CEO. And they asked me if I'd, um, like the position of CEO present investment management. And I mean, my heart stopped. I said no, but this is not part of this is not part of the deal. We want someone with a profile,

Speaker 0:
and they gave me a talking tree and they said they believe in me. I've been here for so long. I know the culture. I understand the DNA, um, and I must think about it. And I I went away. I didn't answer immediately because right there the I guess the impostor syndrome kicked in. And I was like, Look, what do I do now? Um, and I gave myself some time to reflect on it, and I thought, Well, you know, you've been given a shot back yourself. Um, instead of letting those insecure feelings sort of bubble up and think I can't do it,

Speaker 0:
um, I, I thought, What's the worst that can happen? I've got to support, um, And if I fail, So what? I fail forward. Um, so, yeah, I took the shot and been at it for five years,

Speaker 0:
having fun comment fail forward at 91. How do you embrace this mentorship and sponsorship opportunity for both females and for

Speaker 1:
males?

Speaker 1:
Yeah. So we I mean, our structure is is pretty flat. Um, you know, So we we don't have a formal mentorship sort of programme or sponsorship programme. We've obviously got a grad programme and a top student programme and a change lasers programme. But But what we do, what tends to happen is internally, uh, we as a South African leadership team

Speaker 1:
identify a couple of individuals that we we mentor, um and and so it's not It's not a formal structure. Uh, we did try that many years ago, and we found that it doesn't actually, it doesn't actually work. Expectations on both sides, you know, end up not being met. And

Speaker 1:
and the manager of that person, the direct reporting manager, the roles get confused sometimes. So So it is a a softer, more informal role. But absolutely. You know, we do have, uh, a soft mentorship, uh, particularly, you know, new people that have joined, um, across divisions. Um, but ultimately, I'd say

Speaker 1:
you you You hit your ride, you know, onto a person and and And you want to back them? You know, I was I was just, I think lucky I I You know, I think it was a lot of luck, Um, and had someone believe in me and back me from the start. Um, I didn't realise

Speaker 1:
I had the potential necessarily at the time. Um, but you know, and and and I think that's where the firm is amazing that across positions or levels or divisions, there is definitely, um, a caring and an intention

Speaker 1:
to, you know, it's not just human capital's problem, and I think that's really important. Almost when you box it just with human capital, I think that's when you have challenges. Um, it's really people who who understand the business who've been in the business for long. Uh, Gail Daniel plays a a hugely important role in mentoring a lot of the women in the investment team, but it's not a formal role that you have who wants to do it?

Speaker 1:
They want to to learn from her, and it sort of just works. Um, and and Gale is willing to be generous and giving in terms of that. So it's not a formal structure. Um, but But I think that's hugely valuable. John Beard, for instance. I mean, he's been incredible, Um, in terms of of, you know,

Speaker 1:
rearing up talent and then across across divisions, you know, myself and, you know, he's on the retail side. I'm more on the institution and corporate side and across those areas. Also, you know where you want to support individuals, particularly when they've just joined. Um, but so ours is not a formal structure. It is more informal. Um, and I from my experience, I see the biggest challenge that we face is,

Speaker 1:
you know, women for some reason, struggle to communicate and and and say, Look, I'm really struggling at the at home at the moment my child is ill, Um, or just saying I don't think I'm earning enough or ask just asking the question.

Speaker 1:
Um, I don't know if it's it's it's you know it, I think that is that is a bit of a challenge. Um, you know, women don't talk, they they'll leave it almost until it's too late. And that's all. They're so unhappy. And in hindsight, I've seen so many women where they leave and and it's actually for things that that could have stayed, you know, if they just had spoken up and said, Listen, I'm really struggling at the moment with Joburg or this or that one could find a solution.

Speaker 1:
Um, but in their in their minds, the feeling was no. I can't talk about it. And it's also in a lot of the research, you know? Um, so I'm not saying it's a woman's fault that they don't talk up, But there there's something there that women aren't. They don't feel confident enough to be able to say, Listen, I don't want to do this or this is how it's going to be. These are gonna be the balance.

Speaker 1:
And I think particularly if you've been 56 years in your role, you know, and people like you and people see the work you've done, you know, then you're in such a good position to be confident and say, Listen, you know, this isn't working for me at the moment. Can we try this and this and that? Um, so I'm quite surprised when that happens, and the reasons you hear, when, when when someone has left

Speaker 1:
or for reasons you could actually have have fixed. So

Speaker 0:
I in response to Natalie's, um, answer. Perhaps you can comment on the working environment and how we can make it more inclusive from a, um a more open communication. Um, point of view.

Speaker 0:
Yeah. I mean, we've spoken a lot about the softer issues that on the face of it, things look like they're working there. A lot of women, you know, that are succeeding. And then Natalie makes that comment, and you realise, Well, you ask the question of why What's that gap? You know, um, between people's perception of women doing well and them not seeing that,

Speaker 0:
Um and it just reminds me of a story. When I was in primary school, I was in a dual medium school, and my mother was voted onto the board. The school board, only woman, mainly of she was English. Um, it was a predominantly Afrikaans school. She didn't have a tertiary education. Um, everybody else, you know, were doctors, engineers, lawyers, and

Speaker 0:
I've often thought back to how that made me feel. And, you know, you think Jeez, you know, that was quite an achievement. But the message I got was that she was lucky. You know she's a woman and she doesn't have a degree, and she's, you know, she's lucky to be have kind of been voted on, But people voted for her, and yet her perception was, and the message I got

Speaker 0:
was that she was lucky to be there. You know how great that people had extended to her. And those are some of the subtle messages that we get is when you get there. Do you still fully belong? Are you still 100? You know, Are you Are you fully deserving of that position? Um,

Speaker 0:
it's a subtle kind of question that that I think women have in their minds. And those are maybe some of the conversations we need to have that you, you know, you can really believe that you are good at your job. You can really believe that you belong. You can really believe that you are supported. Um, you you know, those are some of the messages that that somehow we we need to land at, you know, at that internal unsaid kind of level

Speaker 0:
there. So perhaps we can talk about gender diversity and the way that it relates to ESG. And then again, more broadly to the United Nations sustainability development goals.

Speaker 0:
Um, yes, we can Also, it's probably more question for, but I'll I'll give a I'll have a shot at it. Um, so, um,

Speaker 0:
goal number five, I think, is the gender equality, uh, goal of SDG. And that goal actually feeds well into all the other goals that, um, are part of the UN SDGS like, uh, no poverty, decent work, economic growth. And there are actually we spoke about quotas and targets early on. Um, the encouragement there is that we have legislation that actually are more inclusive and that drive change and gender equality.

Speaker 0:
So I guess as, um, allocators of people's capital. Um, the question for us is we have to We have to face the fact that we can't fix all market failures, um, with market solutions. So if we want sustainability, the decision making has to be not

Speaker 0:
necessarily within the industry. So to look at the environment, look at social look at governance. So PSG itself is not going to be a silver bullet. But if we embrace the principles of sustainability, then we'll make better decisions, and we'll all be better off and I think that's where gender diversity and equality also comes into the equation.

Speaker 0:
Perhaps she wants to commentate. Thank you, Shereen.

Speaker 0:
Um, yes, The the S from ESG is is, you know, very important for us. I suppose our biggest, um, driver on that side has been in terms of transformation and how that links to sustainability as your reset. But the issue of gender diversity, you know, fits squarely within that,

Speaker 0:
Um, we've seen the research that shows that, you know, businesses that are more diverse do better over time, you know, And that again feeds into the sustainability issue. So I think one's got a link where you're going to why, you want want to do it. Um, and I think ESG is very firmly

Speaker 0:
rooted in this idea of sustainability of the underlying companies that we invest in and how we should be engaging, um, to further that. So I mean, we've spoken a lot about, you know, diversity generally in South Africa, but we're seeing some, you know, some work being done on that offshore. Um, as well. We actually spoke to a global manager this morning. That's bringing out their first report on divers. You know on

Speaker 0:
I, um and so I'm interested to see the goals that they've set, Um, and the challenges that that they face. I mean, all these things help us understand more in terms of what we can can do in this space. But I think

Speaker 0:
working more generally towards a more equal society on as many levels as possible is is just better for the sustainability issue in the long term. Thank you very much, man. Um, she wants to comment there.

Speaker 0:
Yes, I. I wanted to say that I think the pandemic, um, some good that came out of it was that it highlighted the inequalities that we have that we had, um, across the board in terms of health, social well-being and the environment as well. So to put a light and shine a light on that and then again bring the discussion back to, um, inclusiveness and diversity and how we all need to work together to achieve that. I mean, there's there's never been as much cooperation,

Speaker 0:
and I think within the investment management world and in many industries, for that matter to drive, um, transformation and innovation and to sort out the problems of the world. Um, and it's it's It's all moving in the right direction from that perspective. But there are challenges, of course, with ESG. Like I said earlier on, it's not a silver bullet. You have to do the right things for the right reasons and for the outcome to be sustainable. I think that's that's when it all comes together.

Speaker 0:
No, absolutely not at the end point yet. So, Natalie, Then what is the importance of creating this awareness? Um, at high school level. I mean, we've, um, spoken about day of the girl, um, as well as at, um, tertiary education levels for women upliftment.

Speaker 1:
Well, I think, you know, if we just go back to I go back to my school years, you know, and that your future was very much, You know, either you're gonna become a doctor or a teacher or a an accountant, or, you know, it was quite it was quite

Speaker 1:
rigid. You know, your your career path, and you could reference to that. Because in your community, uh, typically, you know, those are the the role players you had, and that's how you would think. And that's how your parents would almost train you. So I think that's the starting point that

Speaker 1:
the impact of that is huge on a young person. Therefore, it's absolutely imperative that there needs to be more training at a far younger level than by the stage that a woman is at university and says, OK, which career do I want? Um and and I think that's where we just did know I knew nothing about investment management. You know, I knew about a bank

Speaker 1:
because Mom and dad would go to the bank and I had a bank account. So it's it's about making it relatable to younger, younger people. You know what is investments? You know, What is that? That you know that a advertisement I see at the airport as a child, you know, and I think we underestimated that influence on youngsters at school already

Speaker 1:
when there's a rugby game and there's a particular company sponsoring it, you know, um, it does sit in the psychology. Um, so it's about

Speaker 1:
the awareness at school level already, and and that's what we've realised. Even with our change blazers programme, you've got to get to to to Children at school already, um, explaining what this is, um and I think that's really, really important, you know, because that's what you're gonna already associate with. I think sometimes it's almost too late. By the time someone's finished studying engineering, uh, you know to know, OK, now I can actually go into an investment career.

Speaker 1:
You know, many people in our industry are engineers, studied engineering and have been very successful in investment management. But, you know, how do you cross that? That that huge path, Um, in terms of a young student saying, Listen, you can actually go into investments. Um, so that's why I think it's really important if I look at the impact

Speaker 1:
many of us had as young school kids in terms of understanding, those are the careers out there. There is just no awareness.

Speaker 0:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it also takes a redefinition of what success actually means and that it's not exclusively related to certain, um, qualifications. But, um, man, perhaps we can also, um, highlight the importance of the industry refraining from using the term girls and rather the use of young professionals. What importance lies in that?

Speaker 1:
Um,

Speaker 0:
yeah, a lot. A lot sits in the subtlety, so um I was sitting around around a campfire a few years ago when a conversation came up, Um, where one of my female friends said, you know, she doesn't like the term ladies

Speaker 0:
and the men were horrified. Um, you know, and this whole debate kind of ensued of, Of why, you know, And it's the ladies, the women, female girls, and and what are the messages around it? And I? I think the men still couldn't understand. But I think what she was trying to say is, ladies speak to, um what is the word?

Speaker 0:
Um, like a gentleness. Uh, I'm not saying it's a horrible term or shouldn't be used, whereas women is a is a stronger term. Um, and then girls is just,

Speaker 0:
you know, it's Yeah, it's it's kind of

Speaker 0:
it's a sweet term, and I think people shy away from the word woman. But it's important that we use strong words like women. Um, because it signifies that women can stand next to men. They're not the ladies, you know. Um, so it's a subtle messaging, but, um, it's all the subtleties that kind of add to the way women are perceived. Um,

Speaker 0:
yeah. Um So, Natalie, is the industry been making headway in women empowerment? And what more then can be done?

Speaker 1:
No, I think you know, women empowerment is a very broad statement. You know, um

Speaker 1:
and I think

Speaker 1:
I mean, first and foremost

Speaker 1:
it is. You are not entitled to women empowerment or being empowered. You have to earn it. Um, you know, so maybe I'm a bit old fashioned here, but, you know, it's not gonna get handed to you on a platter.

Speaker 1:
You will become empowered. And I think the more sustainable way of being empowered is by you actually being the matress or the mistress or the woman of your destiny. Um um, and I think that mindset change, um is super super important. So So having that mindset, I think does

Speaker 1:
does make you actually empower you more than saying, you know, when is it gonna happen to me? Wo is me. I'm the woman. Things are unfair of turning it around, saying, Listen, you know, here is the evidence I've earned it. I've worked for it. Um, I think that's already far more empowering at the start. Secondly, um, is then ensuring you. You have a voice at the table.

Speaker 1:
Um, and and sometimes you do actually have to fight for it a bit, um, and and and have a bit of a a bit of the the grit and the tenacity. And I see the women that that are still in the industry, and there's been a lot of resilience in that um um, you know the staying power. Don't underestimate staying the course and the staying power of of doing your time for long.

Speaker 1:
Um and and it requires a lot of resilience. I mean, our industry at the moment is facing headwinds all round. Globally, the industry is under massive pressure. If you read the recent PWC report on asset management over and above that in South Africa, we've got our own challenges with a very, very difficult economic environment that I think is weighing on everyone even personally.

Speaker 1:
Um, so So I think the starting point is, you know, you've got to you've got to earn it to to be empowered, Um, and secondly, is is make sure you've got then got your voice at the table. Um, and then I think you know it. It

Speaker 1:
obviously the culture and the organisation that you're in, um, and and making that choice. So I read an amazing book over the weekend, and I'm sure every a lot of people have read. It's called The Choice by Edith Eger, which is a, um, a woman who's a Holocaust survivor. She's 96 today,

Speaker 1:
and at 53 she became a clinical psychologist. Um, and her whole journey of her life, not just her time at, But, um, you know, it is about changing your mindset and saying I have choices. It doesn't matter what colour I am and what gender I am. Um, and don't wait for it.

Speaker 0:
Oh, Natalie, that's really powerful. Thank you very much for sharing Sheri. Now to close up the session. What is your outlook for this gender parity argument? And how is the industry evolving to to, um, to support this?

Speaker 0:
Well, there's probably two things. The one is that the discussions like today and the EPPF. Report, um, to shine a light, um, on the stories of the industry and the women who have made it and those who are still coming through the pipeline.

Speaker 0:
Um, that's quite important. Uh, because when you're building a career, whether you're a man or a woman. You want to be in the slipstream of someone that's been successful. Everybody wants to succeed. Everybody wants to be part of a successful story and build a career. So I think, to to to hear the stories and to be able to relate and to see the importance of or to recognise the importance of what we do in our industry. Um, that's encouraging.

Speaker 0:
Um, so the outlook from that perspective is is pretty bright. I think the the big challenge for us in leadership positions is to drive that change and to be quite deliberate about it. Uh, because when it comes to making a decision around hiring someone, once someone is in the business, that is it. You need to You need to foster them. You need to grow them. You need to find a way for them to belong.

Speaker 0:
Uh, so So it's and and you have to take that quite seriously. And and sometimes it means if you want to drive diversity and drive change, you, you need to wait for the right person to come along. Um, because it's it's a long game, you know, as Natalie said, you have to do your time in the saddle to get that experience.

Speaker 0:
Um, but then the second thing is that what excites me, I think about the future is that the young, um, professionals coming through are incredibly smart. I mean, there is just no two ways about it. They they're bent for technology, the ability to programme

Speaker 0:
to consume information. They do it so much smarter, so much faster. So I think for us to to as leaders, to embrace the fact that the industry is changing and that there's a lot more power in the talent and the skills set coming through, Um, and to make them part of the story, I think that will ultimately drive the change and encourage people to join us.

Speaker 0:
Yeah, and then for me, I think just on a personal level, um, my favourite saying is, uh, be yourself. Everyone is already taken. Uh, I think Oscar Wilde said that so So I think as a woman to be or well, anyone be your authentic self be genuine to people. Be kind. Um, always go back to your grounding your values. Uh, that's what helps you to stay the course. Um and to be accountable.

Speaker 0:
Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that, Sheri. Well, on that note, I would like to thank you very much for sharing your insights into Global woman and finance. We appreciate your time.

Speaker 1:
Thank you, Chloe. Thanks for. Thank

Speaker 0:
you.