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Welcome to Asset T. V's Climate Change Summit with Me, Joanne Banham. Today at the Pan Line. Moderating is the investment road map to net zero. On my panel today is Sofia Sabia, head of investments government employee pension Fund. David Levinson, head of Responsible Investments. NED Group Investments.

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Robert Leinen, head of Responsible Investments, Old Mutual investment group,

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and Jason Lightfoot, portfolio manager. Future Growth Asset Management.

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Welcome to you all.

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Climate change is clearly something that an awful lot of people are worried about at the moment. But there are also massive opportunities. What I'd like to cover in our session today is the context behind this investment landscape as we move to net zero the opportunities and the challenge and what the policy response is from government and private enterprise. So, Rob, my first question goes to you. Give us some context of how we've got here and and why it's so important.

Speaker 0:
Oh, hi, Joan and good afternoon, everyone. Um so the context really is one that I think most of our our our viewers today will be familiar with. There's a lot going on in the world and there has been a lot going on in the world in the last five years. Um and particularly the with regard to the green economy context and this inevitable change towards a

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what we have seen is despite volatility in the world that we are at large and that goes both on a socio economic as well as a political landscape. What we have seen is an increased, uh, acceler acceleration into a decarbonising that we're very excited about and because it represents an incredible opportunity,

Speaker 0:
what we have seen is, uh, from a geopolitical perspective, the the race is on in a in a nutshell, um, both, uh, the Global North and Global South, as well as previously western and eastern economies or vine for the crown as to who's going to be the the the King, if you like of the new economy and the policies that have been implemented in the last few years

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that are coming to the fore, particularly now, are really driving and incentivizing that shift of behaviour in in in the global economy towards ensuring that the resources of green energy and and and producing goods and services in a way that doesn't add carbon into the atmosphere or even reduces carbon from the atmosphere is probably the order of the day going forward.

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What we need to see, of course, is the the real. The real impact of that and real change that is starting to happen are all around us in terms of how goods and services are produced and how they are transported. And when I say goods and services that also includes us as people moving around and and doing our day jobs.

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So I think the context is that we've never been in this in a period in history where there are that many tailwinds that are driving us towards a a low carbon and and dare I say net zero future and hopefully by 2050 or sooner.

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David, as we move from this environment to from just transition to net zero. What do you see as the biggest challenges to this world that we want to move towards?

Speaker 1:
Yeah, uh, that's a good question. So again, to paint some context on the back of what Rob said so effectively, we're trying to reach net carbon zero by 2050 as we try to keep global warming down to 1.5 degrees above preindustrial levels by 2100. So it's quite difficult to gather these sort of time frames. And, uh, you know, conceptualise it here as we sit in 2023. Um, and so one of the challenges we do get or you could flip the narrative and say It's an opportunity as we start to see this, uh, filtered through in policy,

Speaker 1:
uh, at a global scale as well as a national scale. So South Africa signs up to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change and we make pledges our, uh, nationally determined contributions in terms of, uh, carbon dioxide or greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. So we look for policy clarity, um, as a potential risk, something like carbon tax. As you start to price that in, uh, as equity Ana do do and the cost to companies, particularly here in South Africa,

Speaker 1:
uh, policy in Europe, for example. I think it's the green, uh, deal that they have over there. So that's come into fruition as well as, uh, Joseph Biden recently announced the, uh, IRA. I think it's the, uh, Inflation reduction act in the US. Um, and you really see these mechanisms start to unfold economically. Uh, believe something around 100,000 job applications have sprouted up literally in the US in the last sort of handful of months on the back of this policy shift. So from an investment point of view, the the risks of holding fossil fuel

Speaker 1:
exposed companies or, you know, fossil fuel intensive companies and you're looking for companies that can a either pivot or B are also ideally positioned to benefit from this green energy transition that we face.

Speaker 0:
OK, so so so staying on this concept of challenges. I mean, I'd love to. We're gonna talk about opportunities, I promise you guys, but I want to stick to the challenges. So when you're looking at investments and South Africa is still very much a mining country and a big polluter at that from I would imagine we are,

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how do you look at your portfolio now from a portfolio construction perspective and say, you know, these are companies we want to avoid, or you're saying they're transitioning. Perhaps explain to me how you think about portfolio construction with the kind of move to net zero.

Speaker 0:
Yeah. No thanks. Thanks for that question. Joan So it's it's It's indeed a very tricky, um, one to get a grasp of right. So because on the one end, um, as mentioned by David, there's this big move towards net zero. And when considering our unique perspective of South Africa, where at least 80% 19 according to certain estimates of our energies generated from coal

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and the very thing that, uh, uh, we seeking to reduce is, um, emissions via coal production. Right, So that's the significant consideration. So what that then entails is that we'd have to be very careful in in terms of portfolio construction as you've mentioned. So as a fund, what we've adopted is an approach we which we termed as the just transition

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approach. Um, and according to us, what it means is that we would remain invested, um, in companies which you know, would be deemed as producing dirty energy or benefit from dirty energy production or coal fired or or coal generation in particular.

Speaker 0:
Um, but while still doing that, um, you're ramping up investment in in renewables. We do this because I mean, there's a a massive societal, uh, implication, as mentioned, I think at least around 100,000. Uh, people remain employed, uh, in coal generation or adjacent industries in this country

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and moving away from coal would have, uh, significant, uh, ramifications for these individuals and just for society in general as well. So what we have adopted is both looking forward, um, in in enhancing

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investment in renewables but at the same time maintaining our current investments in, in in in companies and entities which are producing or involved in producing dirty energy as it's called, Uh, but while engaging them on better practises going forward.

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OK, I think that's in a country like ours. We have no choice in that regard. Jason, you and I have talked before, and you've said, you know, banks and investment houses are desperate to lend to renewables. Tell me more about what you're seeing from that side of things because to Sofia's point, you know, we're also investing in renewables. You invest in renewables via the equity markets via bond markets. He were saying to me what you're seeing in your space,

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you know, I mean, that pretty much is the case. Um, it's not a case of or a story of a shortage of capital, but it often comes down to so shortage of, um, bankable deal opportunities.

Speaker 0:
Um, and we've seen changes in in regulation like, uh, Regulation 28 where there's been a creation or a carve out of an allowance to invest into infra infrastructure and assets. Even before that, pension funds could invest up to 35% in true under assets, which are made for for the the realm of, uh, these sort of investments. It ultimately just comes, ultimately just comes down to the fact that

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over the last couple of years we've seen a massive shortfall of real bankable opportunities aside from what we've been seeing happening in the renewable energy programme itself, where billions of rands have gone into that programme, Um, not only from the banks, but also from the capital markets in the form of pension funds. OK, so maybe I'll ask you this question, Rob, we know in South Africa, not even from a clean energy perspective. We have an energy problem.

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Uh, why are there so few bankable projects in South Africa? And there's this We know the world's migrating towards the zero carbon world, and we know South Africa is an energy issue why have there been so few bankable projects?

Speaker 0:
But I would I would suggest that it's probably the risk of offtake that's probably driving the the bank ability for most of these projects. It's, I think we need to be a bit more specific around bank because it is pretty much bankable, except for one thing and one thing only. And that's been making sure

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that the these projects are going to evidence a long term and secure return on investment over time. Now there's a lot that can be done to ensure that security for investors of all types be their equity or debt in this instance. But

Speaker 0:
but given that you are putting a lot of capital at risk, what is your underpin and shown that there is some sort of guarantee or fallback position if things aren't, uh, met on time or or, uh, timelines are changed?

Speaker 0:
And I believe that the It's a simple process, really, to ensure that the providers of those funders, the projects themselves, the policy environment as well as if you like partners that in that international partners who are willing to step in

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and underpin some of the risk that is that is taken on by providers of capital to ensure that these projects get done. Because, let's face it, Joan, the the need is is to diet. It's great. It's We need to do this now, Um, everywhere around us in the around the world, these projects are springing up. Like I would say, mushrooms is probably,

Speaker 0:
uh, too easy an analogy. But they literally are coming and and it's it's being built out of nothing. Um, if we look at the some of the other way that green hydrogen is is going in the US, the billions of dollars in and that has been ploughed into this embryonic industry which didn't exist even 10 years ago, certainly not in its green fall,

Speaker 0:
um, is just It's remarkable and it's happening at at at a rapid, rapid pace. So as much as we are, you know, ready to go and ready to really fired up about some of the opportunities. What we are looking for is that that sense of security that we know that these projects are gonna win, that we are going to and at the same time create that societal need that we desperately need to have So if we if we look at what impact

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invest in really is about, is ensuring that it is an investment return but also achieving that impactful outcome and the at the end of the day and you know, let's let's let's close those few gaps that exist and make sure that we can create in a market that flourishes.

Speaker 0:
OK, so, Rob, you talk about closing gaps and policy response. Uh, Jason, maybe you give us some more indication. Like, what kind of policy responses would you like to see to make these projects more bankable? And when I talked to you guys before, we talked about Namibia being a very good example of a country that's doing a lot of the right things, and that's quite close to us. So maybe Jason talk to me about public private partnerships to allow these projects to be more bankable. What would you like to see

Speaker 0:
for sure, I mean, in the realms of a of a PPP or this word a public private partnership. We've seen the great successes coming out of the new programme itself, and that's pretty much heads on all the right points in terms of what investors want to see. So it comes to things like or aspects like, um, having a clear bidding process in place. Um, having clarity in terms of how the project selection happens itself, um, aspects like

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policy and political certainty, you know? I mean, that's that's a big concern. We've recently seen utterances from the minister of energy around potentially

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investing additional capital into debunked or defunct um, power plants, which kind of goes completely against what we've been trying to achieve through the R. R P. 2019, the national data plan itself to really look around ensuring that, you know, we have a clear path in terms of how these projects come into play and in terms of the clear roles that the online parties then play within their respective roles.

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So Visa in terms of what Jason is mentioning, you know, needing a clear path, Are you seeing more policy initiatives in place that make you more comfortable that we aren't making the right decisions? Is policy something that worries you?

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I think as as mentioned, the

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they have been initiatives, um, done here locally. Um, I think it was David and Jason as well. They mentioned the re programme, which, you know in many aspects has been considered world class in terms of, uh, at least, uh, concept a conceptualization of of, of how, uh, a PPP infra, uh, framework would can function, um, to solve problems of this nature.

Speaker 0:
Um, on the policy front, I think there are some slight developments in green shoots. Um, that are, you know, working their way through the system obeyed very slowly. I think, uh, from this month, the the the unbundling of of the energy producer that we have Eskom is is taking place. And I believe it's today that, uh

Speaker 0:
uh, the energy regulator is due to make some determination around the licencing agreement of the transmission, uh, company that will arise out of, uh, the unbundling of Eskom. So I would say the movement is there. It's It's just a bit slower than, um than the industry would want. Maybe I can jump in and also say in terms of green shoots giant um, what we've also seen is a clear statement of intent from our financial regulator. The F S C. A

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today has released a statement stating how they're going to there. There are a number of work programmes which I believe are absolutely necessary, uh, to ensure that, uh, financial information around sustainability is solid and sound and transparent. Um, that

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beyond anything uh, that we've said already is a crucial factor for us. Um, as an investment managers to, uh, to to to take cognizance of It's been a long time coming. We've heard a lot about greenwashing. We've heard a lot about, uh, the alphabet soup of e s G standards out there. Um,

Speaker 0:
you've heard, uh, a lot about, you know, uh, stewardship and what that means and what it actually entails. I mean, uh, so you are touched on it. Below I mean, having to own, uh, companies that are responsible for our high carbon emissions in our country. We have to do be active owners, uh, and

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and and participants, uh, in, uh, and stewards of of their strategies in terms of getting to net. And what we are pleased to see from a policy point point of view is that FIS A has has produced the statement with five key work streams around making and ensuring a level playing field within the market.

Speaker 0:
So I was very happy to see this this statement come out and deal with some of the thornier issues around responsible investing and also to bring certainty to the market. Um, something that I've been I've been, uh, a big proponent of, uh, for a long period of time,

Speaker 1:
David.

Speaker 1:
Yeah, I think just to give some context to what Robin was saying as well as Jason. So and for the viewers out there, why we're talking so much about Eskom is

Speaker 1:
so rule of the South Africa emits around 500 million tonnes of carbon dioxide, and little more than maybe half of that is from Eskom. So from a materiality point of view, it's a massive intervention for us. And then Rob mentioned the private sector as well. So the usual suspect sail at 60 million tonnes are around. I don't know, 13% or so of our national emissions. So there's some key, uh, touch points that investors can focus on. And then on the policy side,

Speaker 1:
a nice shift that we've seen was, uh, removing the cap on self generation. So, for example, Anglo America, they are now looking to, I think, build around three gigawatts of, uh, self generating renewable capacity, which, you know when you think about our grid is 40 gigawatts, that's, you know, north of 66% by a single company alone. So that's always something quite positive, Uh, that investors like to see as well.

Speaker 0:
So I saw something today. I think it was from Business leader South Africa. The 2.4 gigawatts of power was coming out of the grid in the first quarter of this, you know, through renewable projects or maybe planning to come on board. But, you know, we have got hope coming through, and I'm glad you explained why it's coming so important to the whole climate change conversation. So via a question for you on sort of climate change that we're discussing today,

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when we talk about companies and how we think about investing when you think about investing, do you think OK, climate change is a great opportunity, so it's almost like it's thematic fund. I want to invest in anyone that's trying to do carbon credits, carbon capture, you know, green hydrogen, Or do you say to yourself every fund I invest in needs to be aware of the climate and how it affects the company. So is it two different strategies? Are they one strategy?

Speaker 0:
Um, so I would say we do both. Um, So there are aspects in our investments which, uh, aim to achieve impact, you know, for from a climate change point of view, Um, particularly in our listed investment programme. There's there's a dedicated, uh, allocation towards renewables. Um, so that's the one part where it's it's, you know, set apart and and allocated to the end.

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Um, however, But in in in all investment decisions that we make, um, you know, there our level of conviction, uh, before holding a counter, be it listed or unlisted. Um, there is a climate or e s g related score that we have there. And, um, it's, you know, in consideration with other factors such as returns and et cetera.

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Um, and if there are significant concerns from a governance point of view, we may, um, we we do, we would hold it. But, you know, uh, at maybe risk reduced level, uh, and with the view to engage the entity on changing its E s U practises, uh,

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particular climate change. So, um, it's it's on both ends. So it's embedded in our in our strategy. Um, because we we we do have a policy around e s g integration, but also, we have a dedicated, um, portfolio of funds which are geared more towards um

Speaker 0:
uh uh, climate change in particular. Rob, I think David mentioned earlier about carbon credits or being penalised too much carbon. If you're an exporter and the European Union going forward is gonna say, you know how much of your electricity is from dirty coal and how much is some green energy when the company, when you score companies in South Africa is that something you're looking at the moment

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where they get the energy uses from. And so to the Anglo example earlier, If Anglo starts producing its own power, will that go up the ranking? Because it will be a cleaner company? Is that something you think about?

Speaker 0:
There's definitely something we think about Jane. I mean, it's it's not per se that they get rated or or, uh, necessarily better from because we look at things a bit more holistically and what you've referred to really about, uh, on what we're talking about. And what David's speaking about is our our two emissions, which are pretty much set at this stage or have been for a long period of time because we've had one power producer.

Speaker 0:
Now, as more renewable energy comes onto the grid, of course, what we'll see is that the overall scope two emissions for all companies should reduce accordingly, assuming they are using power from the grid. If they go that step further, they, um you know their scope. Two Emissions and self generate their own renew and renewable energy, then their scope two emissions should fall dramatically.

Speaker 0:
However, there is always a sting in the tail and the as we develop. I think, What, what what we what we need to be really focused on going forward is companies. Scope three emissions. Now what are scope three? I mean, we've talked about scope one, their own production scope. Two. Effectively Eskom or self generations. Scope three is really the emissions that are created by the use of their goods and services.

Speaker 0:
So in addition to, uh, you know, what we may see is a nice, steady decline, uh, from some of our highest emitters because they've self generating or there's scope. Two emissions coming down. But we may see as the as the science really of tagging and appropriately allocating a carbon emissions profile of these companies. The cope three emissions are really where I think our next area of focus will be,

Speaker 0:
um, and that, unfortunately cannot necessarily, uh, be renewable way. Um, and and it will take a lot more effort of our investing companies to identify and work with their customers, both upstream and downstream, to look at ways to effectively decarbonise the operations. Because

Speaker 0:
it's it's all we are. It's all interconnected to one thing. Just as Scope two was so, too. Are we seeing a broader, um, amble around carbon emissions going forward?

Speaker 1:
I think that's a good point on Scope three. It's it's kind of easier on part of the Nedbank family for a bank to say, Yes, we're going to be net zero, but,

Speaker 1:
uh, chat to a or a Goldfields or anyone else that's doing sort of manufacturing or mining or industrial activity. It's it's a It's a far larger challenge than merely going out and pledging that, uh, when we look at companies, you know, big oil companies, your shell or your total, uh, there's scope one in two are so large, but there's scope

Speaker 1:
three, and the cars that we drive is absolutely massive. But it's very interesting from an investment point of view, because these companies are also central to actually investing the most in, uh, greener technologies. Uh, as well. So, uh, it's always quite an interesting one, uh, to try to understand how those companies are positioning and you're seeing them almost rebranding themselves as no longer, uh, big oil, but rather big energy.

Speaker 0:
So you say you had your hand up earlier, or did we cover your time? No. I just wanted to add, um, you know, with regard to the the discussion around Scope one and two, um, and also to the point regarding the EU and, uh, some of our other trading partners is that,

Speaker 0:
um while there is this big concern and consideration around, uh, employment and jobs within the mining sector, there is this big, um, well imminent situation, which is, is on the other end, which is basically, uh, both a threat and opportunity. Right. Where, um, because of, uh, the carbon tax at the border initiative. Uh, our vehicle manufacturing sector does have some risk. You know,

Speaker 0:
um, in the sense that, uh uh uh when our trading partners will then start having or adding, uh, higher taxes because of, uh, the scope one and and scope two emissions, um, regime,

Speaker 0:
um, then you know, our other sectors start becoming impacted by not, uh uh uh uh uh decarbonising as we should. So that's just something to consider. Um, going forward, Uh, from a I say from a policy perspective and also in, in, in, in, in, In Terms of,

Speaker 0:
you know, the the the the whole debate around who who's mostly impacted? I think there's more. Uh, uh, employees in the vehicle manufacturing sector actually employed, uh, and, uh, in certain instances, it actually contributes more, uh, to our GDP than mining. So, yeah, that's another consideration as well that,

Speaker 0:
uh, you know, we have to do it, uh, because of other sectors in the economy. So it's a tradeoff. So he said, That's a very interesting start about the number of jobs in the car industry in South Africa. But on in the car industry, are we starting to make electronic vehicles electric vehicles, or is it still in in, you know, ice vehicles for? What are we doing here?

Speaker 0:
Yeah, well, I don't have the the stats, uh, with me now, but I mean, looking at, um I think it's the, uh uh uh

Speaker 0:
i e a right to the independent electronic association. Uh, energy association, Like the Global Association for Energy Production. I think their targets around 2030 is that at least 60% of car cars manufactured Must be E V s, right

Speaker 0:
And, uh 2030 2035. I think all trucks, uh, not all trucks. I think at least 40% or 50% of trucks need to be a, uh uh uh E v in particular as well. Um, I don't think we're there. Um, but it's just AAA consideration from our end. Um, we have, I think, in our coastal region. Um, that entire manufacturing base, uh, is is is basically

Speaker 0:
factored for that market. It's an export driven market, and it's it it supplies the the the European Union. So it is a significant, uh, consideration for our own country from an export point of view.

Speaker 0:
OK, guys, I feel like we've spent a lot of time to, like challenges and policy responses, but Let's get people really excited about this space. So I'm gonna ask each one of you. Let's talk about the things where we're gonna make really fantastic investment returns, and we're also gonna do good. So, Jason, I'm gonna kick up with you. Give me some of your best ideas. If you're seeing out of this space in terms of we know, we're not gonna be at net zero tomorrow. But we're moving there. So So where are the opportunities?

Speaker 0:
I think it's important to, you know, if if one looks at the integrated resource plan of 2019,

Speaker 0:
the funding short for the required capital for related transactions is about I'd say 1.4 trillion rand now. That's not even regarding the the amount of capital that's required for for embedded generation. So there's definitely a lot of deals to go around or a lot of funding that is needed to fund these opportunities. But in saying so, um, it's important that the banks share so ultimately the banks would structure these deals and then syndicate it to the capital markets.

Speaker 0:
And we've seen now to the tail end of probably around five around six, where a lot of the banks have been not mono monopolising their transactions and ultimately driving spreads down and not really taking a a bigger picture view of the ultimate massive funding requirement that's required for over the next 10 to 15 years. Because ultimately they are gonna have to syndicate.

Speaker 0:
OK, David.

Speaker 1:
Uh, yeah, it's a good question. We run an annual review around, I think, about 45 managers or so that's local and global, trying to get a sense of their view on the largest climate risks and opportunities. Uh, the risk we spoke about to get your transition and your physical risks of climate change. We don't need to go into that too much depth. But on the opportunity side, one of the ones that comes up quite a lot is around next generation, uh, minerals. And what's required in that energy transition?

Speaker 1:
Uh, they're not perfect, but they're better than the alternative. Uh, so in a lithium ion battery, for example, you'll have lithium, cobalt, um, graphite, uh, nickel and manganese, which South, I think produces around a third, almost a third of the world's manganese. So from an investment proposition, uh, that's how South Africans can get access to at least directly, um, or at least indirectly.

Speaker 1:
Um, and then we haven't spoken too much, I guess around small and medium sized enterprises as well. And I know the last time we spoke, we joked about If you're living in Cape Town and you don't work in renewable energy, you most certainly you know somebody who does. So,

Speaker 1:
uh, the entrepreneurial spirit, uh, in me is is optimistic, Uh, particularly around something like, uh, job creation, the just transition. There's a big social implication there, and Sofia mentioned that around 100,000 people working in coal uh, we're not America. But the US have forecast the fastest growing growing jobs, uh,

Speaker 1:
leading it to 2030 for the decade are I think it was wind turbine engineer and solar panel technician. So I don't think our economy is as agile as the US economy, But the the glimmers of hope that the job creation, the multiplier of these smaller and medium, uh, companies, as well as the energy transition, uh, can offer us something here.

Speaker 0:
OK, that's it. I like a positive note. Sofia.

Speaker 0:
Yeah. No. So in in terms of a way, we see it I mean, when I was looking at, uh, one of the reports by by the National Business Initiative it basically saying that the transition itself would would require at least 100 and 90 g watts of both solar and wind.

Speaker 0:
Um, and for us to deploy that, uh, it would take around 6 to 7 gigawatts for the next three decades, um, per year. Right. So which, which is significant, um, especially considering, um, capacity to date, uh, both within the reprogram and other ones. So it that basically says that there's a lot of investment that would have to happen

Speaker 0:
as mentioned by Jason earlier on, um, from a banking sector, obviously. What What needs and and generally what happens is that you have capital recycling where your your your banks are your earlier funders into these, um um projects and then later on, um, that

Speaker 0:
capital is recycled into other projects. But other investors, such as ourselves as pension funds would then take on the assets for, you know, for for a longer part of the the life of of of of the actual renewable assets. So, um, that means there's a lot of investment that will be made in this particular sector. And institutional, uh, capital allocated, such as pension funds would and should be considering, um, an allocation towards renewable energy production.

Speaker 0:
Um, you know, for the medium term at least, um, so it it would be a significant part of, uh uh, all allocators lives. Um, for the medium term,

Speaker 0:
OK? And, rob.

Speaker 0:
Oh, I'm gonna say back. Look, for the you're gonna have to look very carefully at which companies are gonna win in this in the new space. Thematically, we know. And we have already touched on some of the the key winners the rare earth minerals, renewable energy. I would even throw electric lies and manufacturers into the pot because everyone's gonna need, uh, some form of those those products.

Speaker 0:
What I would say is that we need to do a a even more thorough job of how we assess the companies that are going to be part of that future. Because what we will, we will see is that there will be winners and they will be losers. And not because that they then the necessarily the investment theme is incorrect or is gonna take on a different track. We know that theme is well baked. What we need to see is, of course, the companies

Speaker 0:
so that they will manage and will, uh, have key strategies around capital education, et cetera, and a key strategic plan really to take the best advantage of these opportunities out there. So assessing the market and assessing, uh, our our listed companies, from our perspective is really one of those exciting parts of our job to see which ones are going to be the horses that win the race. Uh, when it when we look back in 10 years

Speaker 0:
time and say, Oh, this green revolution happened and look at these companies that were, uh, as they might be in the small and medium size but now today are and multi corporate, uh, national Corporates. That's something that, um, is a very exciting opportunity From where I'm sitting and certainly from where our clients sitting in, I think they they would be the ultimately the winners at the end of the day. If if if this theme plays out thank you.

Speaker 0:
OK, well, talking to all of you guys of opportunities, it's nice to see how your faces all started smiling so that makes me feel a lot about this space, Um, and also to touch on from me, David said. If we can try and create jobs in the small and medium enterprises in this country, what a win. So back to where you started, Robert, with the context of where this started, you know South Africa has signed up to these things. We need to change

Speaker 0:
the way we produce our energy. But there's also a huge we need to because we actually can't do it through call alone anymore. And it's and nobody mentioned that today. But when I talk to you guys before we have plenty of sun and wind, let's harness it. Let's create jobs because the future could be really bright if we cannot act together. So thank you very much. All of you. Thank you.