Speaker 0:
Hello and welcome to this round table on impact investing. I'm joined today by Conway Williams, head of credit at Pre Investment Management. Bena Negash, ESG manager at the government's Employees Pension Fund, as well as Leslie Dowana, principal executive officer at the National Fund for Municipal Workers.

Speaker 0:
So, Elena. Some interesting statistics from the Global Impact Investing Network the fact that over the past five years, impact investments globally have risen from $95 billion to $213 billion reflecting about an 18% compound annual growth rate. Perhaps we should just unpack. Firstly, what impact investing is what makes the investments impact for and how does it differ from traditional investing?

Speaker 0:
So impact investing is exactly what the word says, um, investing to create an impact. Um, essentially, it is not about, um, you know, investing for, um, a development like AD F. I would, um, it's ensuring that you also meet a specific return,

Speaker 0:
but trying to create a positive, um, tangible, measurable impact for society and for business.

Speaker 0:
OK, so Conway. The primary objectives of asset managers as well as assets owners is ultimately to derive and generate returns for clients and and pension fund members. Would there then be a trade-off, perhaps between driving impact and generating returns?

Speaker 1:
Oh, hi. Morning, Chloe. And thanks to everyone for, um, listening and joining this morning when we create products, we think of it in terms of our three pillars, whether it is ESG centric, sustainable, responsible investing or your traditional products and the likes. And then we do use those for our clients with regards to impact investing. We've seen that with our corporate ethos, we try to derive com commercial returns for our clients

Speaker 1:
while making positive impact. And it goes in terms of our broader present ethos in that we know that if you actually want a sustainable economic growth situation not only talking about economic growth but economic development, you have to plough money into projects that actually derive that sort of positive Inco positive outcome or that positive impact. And with that in mind, we been able to create products that actually then we take to market, we sell to clients, um and then we actually then deliver on the promises that you make

Speaker 1:
with regards to that. We've got, for example, a clean energy offering. We've got a broader infrastructure offering. We've got high yield and various types of offerings that have significant amount of impact included in it. But it's not necessary on our side that we're creating impact products. It's just that we're building those alongside the ability to deliver commercial returns because at the end of the day we need to deliver commercial returns. But when you are able to deliver commercial returns and generate impact like our three funds do,

Speaker 1:
then we're actually very proud of it. And we actually get a lot of, um, ability to then make a proper, tangible impact on the ground where you actually see that you change people's lives and you still be able to deliver on the returns. And that's very important because we don't take that first loss. We're not. As Bolena said, we're not the DFIS. We're not government that's supposed to be doing all of these things, so but what we do is we'll We'll work within a framework with either the public sector

Speaker 1:
and then actually get them to take structures appropriately, take first losses and then they are able to unlock capital because again, if you just look at the South African situation itself. We are a fiscally constraint, and the private sector needs to come along and play a role. And again, if they do a specific thing and and provide us with certain, um of our requirements to meet our requirements, you will, that they will be able to unlock a significant amount of private sector capital, which then has that multiplier effect of delivering on economic development objectives. And that is the way we see it.

Speaker 1:
Yes, we do have impact funds, but again, it's not the only or the sole reason for us having those funds.

Speaker 0:
Thank you, Conway.

Speaker 0:
So, Leslie, in South Africa, we struggle with a very high unemployment rate. High inequality as well as stagnating economic growth and infrastructure has been a quite an interesting, uh, topic of discussion, and particularly for the large asset owners.

Speaker 0:
How has impact investing evolved in the South African market and globally? And what is the relevance of not only infrastructure but also private equity? Um, in delivering impact.

Speaker 0:
Thank you so much. Um, Joe

Speaker 0:
So II I think

Speaker 0:
the point of departure and and what? What we could probably all generally accept is that

Speaker 0:
infrastructure is a catalyst for development.

Speaker 0:
So much of or many of the institutional investors who have got that goal as part of their investment philosophy

Speaker 0:
will be obliged by the mindset and the thinking that they must, uh, invest in in infrastructure. But obviously, infrastructure is is,

Speaker 0:
uh, uh, an asset class er although there is a debate, whether it's an asset class or not, Uh uh, it's it's it's it's important. But

Speaker 0:
usually the the products in which we invest as in institutional investors are very complex as far as infrastructure is concerned. And they come with so many, uh, constraints, like, um, issues around, um, liquidity. Uh, the the the change of, um, investments. Uh uh,

Speaker 0:
things like what are the covenants that that protects you? Because these are much longer term, uh, investment type. And the horizon is is much longer. And you find out that, uh, one of the the instruments that can be used is is private equity. Private equity is what is usually used as a product to get into

Speaker 0:
infrastructure investment and private equity comes with all its its complexities. As an institutional investor, you must have the skills and and capacity and capability to to invest in that space to evaluate those kind of investments. Uh, because of of that nature. But relatively, we have, uh, started to see

Speaker 0:
the interest in the private investment and more generally in the alternative space. Starting to to get, um uh, momentum. Although previously it was much of the the bigger funds that were playing that space. Uh, and obviously, because they have, uh, capacity, they've built, uh, capability. The skills base

Speaker 0:
is is much stronger than the smaller funds. But as I mentioned earlier, the issues around liquidity is also important for a smaller fund. It's difficult to tie your funds in, uh, infrastructure, kind of, uh,

Speaker 0:
yeah,

Speaker 0:
investment. Because you would need those those those funds and the liquidity constraints then draws you into different asset classes, like your traditional asset classes that we know.

Speaker 0:
So Conway, um, at prescience, you focus very much on fixed income, um, type products. How are fixed income products structured so that they can deliver impact as well as, um achieving that return that that we spoke about earlier?

Speaker 1:
Um, it's an interesting one. So I think what Leslie I just mentioned is very important infrastructure investing, impact investing and specifically unlisted. Investing is quite a complex, um, investment class, and you need to make sure that the manager you do a point as the aquisition skills experience not only in terms of getting the opportunities and assessing the opportunities, but then also ultimately monitoring it and making sure it delivers on the outcomes.

Speaker 1:
And I think if you just bring that back to responsible investing or impact investing, you know, when you do set up these type of products, you have deliverable out deliverable outcomes that you want to meet in addition to the financial outcomes that are. That goes without saying so. With that being said, we have our three funds. These are open ended funds, which is which assists very much in terms of the liquidity angle that Leslie mentioned,

Speaker 1:
Um, and then when you talk about the sort of the complexity that goes into it, it's it's actually the way you structure it. So it's having the correct team, the direct skills from a technical and a financial perspective just to actually structure the opportunities and structure the deals. So that is going one level down in as opposed to where you are

Speaker 1:
asking how we do it as a whole or as a house. Because I think if you've got the skills and the experience and the ability to structure the opportunities and network and and again move across from either being an equity holder to a, uh, debt funder or the likes, you are able to then structure those underlying investments appropriately. And then if you take it one step up to a

Speaker 1:
fund level, it is how you optimise your portfolios to actually deliver on those outcomes, whether it is STGS, which is sustainable development goals, which could be your outcome. Or it could be in terms of poverty or financial inclusion and the likes. So it it's all dependent on what you ultimately your A R objective is, and then you structure it accordingly.

Speaker 1:
And then finally, from a fund perspective importantly, we are used, Um, so our funds are used by various, um, type of investors, whether it is high net worth retail and important institutional investors. So there are additional considerations like R 28 in terms of how you actually put your portfolio together so that you have those limits in place,

Speaker 1:
um, so that you don't breach any of the underlying limits, or you are able to display that you actually embed both qualitative and quantitative assessments of projects into your your complete due diligence to actually get a asset unbook. So it is very complex. Leslie just touched on it. Um, and it's an important consideration. However, what we are seeing is a considerable growth in unlisted investments, whether it is private equity and private debt,

Speaker 1:
Um, importantly at the back of the fact that we don't have a FISCUS that can do what it needs to do, um, and should be doing because infrastructure investing should decide within the ambit of the fiscus or national treasury or within government, because these are public goods for public, for public consumption, right.

Speaker 1:
However, if you can't do that, the public sector, the private sector, actually has to step in, and that is what we have been doing for the last 10 15 years. We've got various examples of successes, one being the renewable energy, the integrated programme, um, a significant amount of projects that have come on board and national treasury or the public. The public sector has played a pivotal role to unlock billions and billions of rands of private sector money. So yes, a long winded or long wind type of answer. But again,

Speaker 1:
you need to know what you're doing. When you're doing, you have to have the correct partners and the likes, and then your funds need to create or actually live and and sort of deliver on the outcome that you want to achieve. And again, we are seeing an uptick in terms of interest, both from just general infrastructure investing. And when I say general infrastructure, that could be a housing IC T. It could be education, hospital whatever along those lines. Or it could simply be green energy, which has obviously been a very big focus over the last 10, 15 years, knowing that you don't have a

Speaker 1:
sustainable energy source within the country and that we all living at times with level eight or stage uh, six type blackouts. So we need all of those the interest in that to actually solve the country's problems while delivering on that sort of impact outcomes poverty alleviation, bringing the man on the street the ability to simply connect to the Internet and the likes. It is a big drive and If we get there, we can move from being a country that has the one of the highest GE coefficients in the world to a place where everyone, including the man, it actually benefits.

Speaker 1:
So that is how we look at it and how we build our products. And also importantly how we are able to build our pipeline so that we can keep filling up our, um, actual funds with the required assets.

Speaker 0:
So bolena impact investing has traditionally been viewed to be driven predominantly, um, through the unlisted space, private debts and private equity markets. Specifically, um, the major theme for asset owners. Um, allocating through listed means how do you integrate impact investing on the listed side?

Speaker 0:
Thanks, Chloe, for that question, how we look at impact or driving impact is taking a portfolio, um, level view. So, um, a lot of as you correctly mentioned, um, I think the genesis of impact investing has largely been around private equity. Um, but even on the listed side, you can drive a specific impact. So if,

Speaker 0:
um, for argument's sake, your fund or your as an investor, you believe that, um, tackling hunger is an issue for you? and you would like to drive impact through that, then you can via engagements via proxy voting as well. So, you know, it would be asking management. It would be asking the board. Um, how are you? As, um, a business tackling zero hunger. Um, so, mapping your investments or your, um, the impact that you wanna draw out

Speaker 0:
onto the sustainable development goals provides quite a good, um, road map

Speaker 0:
on how to drive your impact. So, you know, unfortunately, I think the conversation has also been around What is impact? But the impact story, I believe, is largely driven by you as the investor. Um via, of course, also regulation in terms of creating that landscape for you. Um, but we're quite lucky in South Africa in that

Speaker 0:
the sustainability journey is, um, quite mature. I do believe, um, we've, you know, moved along the road of, um, ESG. Um SR I, um C SI. Um, and now you know, we are on impact. So I think it's, um

Speaker 0:
because we've already got that level of knowledge. Um, we are starting to see. Um I do believe, uh, impact driven, um, systems thinking, um and, um, being very intentional in how to drive your capital.

Speaker 0:
OK, thank you very much. So it seems as though, with impact investing, the big challenge is the measurement of the outcomes and to drive capital allocation. Leslie, how do you navigate? Um, measuring the ultimate outcome to direct investments toward impact projects.

Speaker 0:
Ma'am, thank you so much for that question. I. I think the the the number of, uh uh, is that, uh, an investor can

Speaker 0:
use to apply. So depending on the specific impact themes that you would have adopted as as an investor, So, for example, if you you adopt health as one of the the themes that you want to make a positive impact on, uh, one simple example is

Speaker 0:
how many

Speaker 0:
hospital parents that you created through your your capital deployment and what the the the extent of the catchment area of the hospitals or the hospitals that you have, Uh, uh,

Speaker 0:
create it, or or or

Speaker 0:
assisted in building how many, uh,

Speaker 0:
professional medical staff have been employed? What kind of quality of, uh, health delivery is coming from from from that deployment. So depending on each, uh, uh, theme that has been adopted, If we If we look at education side, uh, you can look at how many learners are are part of the schools that you have assisted to build. Uh uh

Speaker 0:
uh, What What is the class rate from those kind of schools? Uh, what kind of teachers are you accepting to? To those schools. Uh, if it's, uh, in the in the S MS, Uh, SME SME space. You're looking at the the job creation. Er, what kind of, um transformative, uh, elements if you brought in, uh, in the in the space. But it's it's also

Speaker 0:
varies from one investor to the next. Uh, there hasn't been a a standard way of of measuring, uh, impact. But

Speaker 0:
as I said, it's more about which themes you you have adopted. And those themes differ significantly from one theme to the next.

Speaker 0:
Ok, thank you very much, Leslie. So Conway prescience is a signatory to the United Nations principles of responsible investing that you mentioned earlier. How are the KPIS there determined? And how does this relate then to impact investing?

Speaker 1:
Um so what? The way we see it is that we see impact investing as a branch of responsible investing and one of our corporate pillars is to be a signature of both RS A and the UN PR. I,

Speaker 1:
um, importantly the UN PR. I is an extensive document that has a significant amount of KPIS across various subsets within either fixed interest or within equity or private equity. So, for example, there would be a property sector. There will be a private equity sector. There will be a F I space fixed interest space and then a subset of that, uh, would have listed, and I I'm listed in it.

Speaker 1:
Um, how we incorporate that into our approach is we built our own ESG scoring mechanism, which is obviously, as I mentioned, a subset of R. I, um it is a 62 factor model, and the reason that we built it was because, as Li Li correctly said is, there's no real standardised approach to considering ESG measuring, measuring, ESG or even reporting on impact. Everyone comes up with all of these different type of measures, and we thought we needed to be a consistent, um,

Speaker 1:
applicant across all of our investing companies for our investment.

Speaker 1:
So what happens is with the UN PR I every time there is a UK P. I added, We take that to our ESG committee, which then allows us to be forward thinking and then add it again to our way. We measure it. So whether it comes to whether there are females on the board, whether it is, it's an emissions issue, whether it be embed emissions considerations in how we create or engage with investing companies. It is a very nice tool for us because it is no standard, and that becomes our standard of forward thinking. You want to call it that?

Speaker 1:
And we went from I think it was about 40 odd factors to now being 62 in our unlisted space. We have about 87 factors that we measure, and then we can report on those factors to our ultimate clients or our investors. So it is. It's taken our ESG committee chaired by Michelle Green. Um, we're a team of eight. It's taken us about a month to complete this, um, task, and it's a task.

Speaker 1:
But the nice part of doing it is that it allows us to then be compared with our peers in the market, because you would either have policies like compensation policies um, equal pay policies at the organisation level? Or are you embedded in an investment approach and then an in a client or an investor that chooses us?

Speaker 1:
Or you can see OK, cool. Your score is a or B or a 0.8 to a 0.4 compared to each other, and there is a little bit of standardisation. It is not a by any means a standardisation process, but it allows that to happen, but then also allows people to then think, OK, this is This is an entity that's built a massive tool. And why are we not thinking about the specific factors? And then we can include it. So that is why we really take it seriously, and our ESG committee takes a lot of time to complete it.

Speaker 1:
Um and then hopefully we'll get the score very soon. Um, I think we've got about two more weeks till it needs to be completed and submitted, and that again importantly, it's private equity. Private debt. It's listed credit. It's a listed equities. Everyone that wants to be a signture has to sign it. It's voluntary, which is very important as well. Um, if it were to be forced upon people. There's obviously negative consequences. But again, this means that if you take it seriously, people can see that you actually embed R I or ESG in your process. And that is what we do. We believe it, and we live it.

Speaker 0:
OK, thank you very much.

Speaker 0:
So, Galena, um, I'm going to bring you in here.

Speaker 0:
Leslie mentioned, you know, driving this impact through measuring the number of hospital beds, measuring the number of hospital staff that are appointed or and employed in the region. What does transformation mean for the GEPF? And why is it important in ensuring accountability?

Speaker 0:
Sure. Um, that's quite a big question, Chloe. Um, transformation is is not necessarily just about having, um,

Speaker 0:
uh, women on boards or, you know, hiring, um, persons with disabilities. But it's the true sense of the word in creating a level of change. Um, and you know, of course, I don't have to go into the history of South Africa, but, um, you know, the impact of that has been generational.

Speaker 0:
And so if you're trying to create a sustainable, um, economy, where one can invest and just given the fact that we are a pension fund, a defined benefit pension fund. And we, of course, want to create a sustainable world where our beneficiaries can retire in.

Speaker 0:
But what is the point of having, um, a pool of funds, Um, you've you perhaps deliver on on the the pension promise. But then it is a world where people cannot retire in. You know, you you're spending, um, let's say 40% of of your pension income on health care. Um, because there is a systemic failure in the system that we are invested in, so

Speaker 0:
and so that is how we view, um, impact or transformation is simply trying to trans transform the the the world that we are investing in so that it is more sustainable for the future. And we can deliver the pension promise in a world that is actually sustainable. And if your system is broken

Speaker 0:
Therefore, um, you know your returns will also not be there. So it's about seeing that, um, that the returns have to be sustained, and the only way that you can do that is by having specific, um, uh, measures in place. And that is why um, we view transformation from that angle and um, besides, of course. Um,

Speaker 0:
of course, you know, we've got specific laws around, um uh, transformation. But, um, it's also about having that level of engagement with, for instance, ee companies, Um, across also the in invest, uh, the investment value chain. So also speaking to our asset managers about how they are also allocating capital.

Speaker 0:
So, Leslie, in its essence, a pension fund exists to see to the pension benefits of of its members and now at the National Fund for municipal Workers, predominantly being blue collar workers. How do you ensure that your investments build that, um, brighter South Africa in in the members retirement lives?

Speaker 0:
And so we

Speaker 0:
we have actually taken a very different view from many other pension funds, retirement funds and institutional investors.

Speaker 0:
So

Speaker 0:
one of the approaches that we have taken is that

Speaker 0:
we consider ourselves as a pension fund.

Speaker 0:
Hm.

Speaker 0:
But we also consider ourselves partly as AD F I

Speaker 0:
We've taken it upon ourselves that we must be part of the development of the economy in which our members

Speaker 0:
leave.

Speaker 0:
Uh uh, and that mindset

Speaker 0:
has also informed our investment strategy

Speaker 0:
and and how our investment must contribute to social development of of the economy,

Speaker 0:
as I said,

Speaker 0:
because that same economy in those communities are where our members, uh uh, live. So

Speaker 0:
I'm mentioning this because

Speaker 0:
from

Speaker 0:
decades back, the emphasis has been on on returns

Speaker 0:
and the notion was always there that the pension fund, you must get the the members their their returns, and And if you invest in in in a manner that I've just alluded to now you

Speaker 0:
prejudicing returns, and that notion was never tested even back then. Uh uh. Now we've got, uh, research papers that confirms that you can, uh, achieve both returns and and and impact. So So one of the approaches that we've um, also taken is that

Speaker 0:
we need to take care of our members

Speaker 0:
during the course of their employment. So if if if all during the course of the membership, if the member is going to be with us for the next 2025 years,

Speaker 0:
we can't forget about that member for the 25 years that the member is with us, only to look at him Uh uh, 30 years down the line when he is retired so that the the capital that we have now must also work for that member now and into the future. So that that's that's more the mindset that has driven, uh, how we we we deploy capital.

Speaker 0:
OK, thank you very much.

Speaker 0:
So, Conway, perhaps we can just look at a case study, um, to make this impact investing round table a little bit more real for the audience you mentioned previously. Africa Direct. How does this, um, company job impact?

Speaker 1:
So I think it's it's a nice example. And it's obviously something that's very close to our hearts, given that the three of us on the deal team come from the community, Um, that is actually benefiting. So what this Africa direct does is it does recognise that um a a large part of South Africa is over indebted. Yet they would have a specific type of asset that they could use potentially as security.

Speaker 1:
So what then happens is you might have a card, a capitec card you might owe owe schools quite a bit of money. It it's a debt consolidation type

Speaker 1:
tool, which also at the same time allows you to get sort of an education, a financial education and the likes. Um, and puts it together in a package so that you can apply to have all of your debt consolidated into a specific manner. It allows you to get a couple of months off in terms of not having to pay that type of debt and then finally you have to go through a 12 week education programme.

Speaker 1:
The impact stats that we measure there is, firstly, how many of the people are female and there's obviously female, um, improvement and upliftment. How many people actually then go through the education programme? Um, how many jobs it does then ultimately facilitate, and then how much savings it actually facilitates. And what you've seen is that the product allows somebody and and generally the households are a household earning less than 15 or around about 15,000 rand.

Speaker 1:
And if you can just imagine saving 3003 30% of that, it's a significant amount. I mean, it's only 15,000 rand and you get two months off to breathe, so you actually earn your entire salary for those two months. You go through the programme, you get another 2000 rand for going through the programme

Speaker 1:
and the impact that are actually amazing. People that were on the verge of actually being listed are actually now getting financial education. They learn about savings. They learn about budgets. They can then actually enter the formal banking system so that they can apply for bonds and it becomes a bit cheaper down the line. And then they can learn how to actually

Speaker 1:
work their money in a better manner. And I think it's 15,000 rand for a household. It so it sounds like a lot, but it's actually not imagine having to pay 2000 rand for daycare 2000 rand for school, 5000 rand to get to school, which is the general to get to work. That's a major amount. And then you get the consolidation and the likes.

Speaker 1:
Um, most of the, um, clients of Africa are female. About 65% are females, and generally females are seen to be the most stable, um, financial people with regards to the households within the communities that that I that we that I spoke about. So it's got a lot of, I suppose, that multiplier type effect in terms of just a simple product that wasn't there in the past that isn't being offered by anyone else. Somebody saw this gap.

Speaker 1:
It is. It's actually quite a visionary type gap in that, Yes. Take Give me your house. Give me your plot of land. Give me your actual shack.

Speaker 1:
I will value it and then we will have a discussion on how much cash you can get, and then we'll pay off your all of those debts on the card. And then just think of the psychological positives as well. You're not fighting just to get to the end of the month. If you put food on the table, you have two months off. It's It has been a great product, and the question that we generally get to asked by our clients are, How could you do that? It's significantly risky. And we're saying, Firstly, we did a pilot.

Speaker 1:
We made sure that the equity providers put money on the on the table next to us. We tested it after 24 months of testing. We then scaled up from being a 15 million transaction to a 50 million. We tested it further. We took it in a measured manner. Now we have about just over 100 million rand invested. We've made a significant impact in terms of the lives and the lives of people that really need it the most.

Speaker 1:
And we've got numerous examples of those. For example, the the deal that we just concluded as well is a tower deal in the rural, I suppose Eastern Cape and KZN and that deal. What we did is we measured. What sort of what the needs are in those communities. Not us, obviously the the actual company. And they said, OK, cool people require it so they can work from home. Um, there's a schooling angle. Somebody in rural Eastern Cape can actually have the same sort of schooling opportunities. Not that it might be taken, but opportunities. As somebody in Metropolitan Cape Town,

Speaker 1:
people don't and people can save it. It's not only about scrolling on YouTube or tiktok and the likes. It's actually doing meaningful things, including stuff like starting a job in the Eastern Cape, as opposed to having this urbanisation drive.

Speaker 1:
And what you've seen is 100 and 60 jobs just in the Eastern Cape is created by putting up 26 towers in those regions, and now people have connectivity, so impact is really meaningful, and it doesn't need to be a billion rand project. Like the projects, it can be the 2015, which ultimately scales to 100 to 200 million. And if you have the ability to do that, you actually get those meaningful impacts on the multiplier effect.

Speaker 1:
And that's that's obviously one of the key drivers of us launching our second fund, our in our broader infrastructure fund, which again has the ability to do that and scale money and collect money and deploy it and get that economic development angle. That's obviously something that we're very passionate about addressing.

Speaker 0:
So, Elena, you as ESG manager at the GEPF. How does ESG relate to impact investing and then impact investing? How is it guided by the United Nations Sustainability development goals?

Speaker 0:
Yeah, So, Chloe, I think with with ESG it's always been a way of investing, um, taking into account environmental, social and governance as pet as almost a risk mitigation method,

Speaker 0:
um, to ensure that your your returns are are going to be sustainable, or you will need the the required returns simply by identifying, you know, what are the potential pitfalls that would impact a specific invest company and trying to hedge against that by having engagements and voting. So that is a risk, I would say, a risk mitigation strategy.

Speaker 0:
Um And then, of course, taking, um, your your risks into account together with your traditional financial metrics should equal to a specific return or a even better, uh, return. So a bit of a, uh, an alpha, uh, generation method.

Speaker 0:
Um, but however, with impact, it's about still wanting to meet your financial returns, but then trying to have a specific outcome for society, for the environment, for the future. And that is how I I differentiate between the two. the one is risk. The other one is about, um,

Speaker 0:
as Conway has correctly said, um, having a multiplier effect that will, you know, create a positive thing for society.

Speaker 0:
Thank you very much.

Speaker 0:
Um, and we now looking at the emerging markets and developed markets, how does impact investing look in, uh, within these two geographies? Is it different with regards to the targets that they're trying to achieve? Or is it pretty much the same thing? Um, just, uh, different. Different wordings.

Speaker 1:
So? So for once, I have a very succinct answer is that our assessment and analysis of the development, developed and emerging market needs are quite similar. It's just the extent of deployment is different. So, for example, you still need to make sure there's housing in a developed nation compared to an emerging market. It's just that the quantum that's needed is a bit more. Um, if you want me to give you a little bit more stats, I can. But I think I spoke to quite a bit.

Speaker 0:
Leslie, I'm gonna close this session off with you. What are your outlooks and the future prospects for impact investing specifically in the South African economy?

Speaker 0:
So the way that we have taken it So we we are having these impact programmes. Obviously, it's it's it's an ongoing project,

Speaker 0:
but we at any particular period, let's say for a five year period we adopt specific themes and deployed in those them. Then we close that that cycle. Then we start another cycle, whether we want to adopt new SDGS or we wanna carry forward,

Speaker 0:
uh, those that we had. Then we give it another period. We complete that cycle, and so that that's how the approach that we We are taking it, uh, as a fund, but generally the outlook. Uh, obviously you you You from an economic point of view, Uh uh. You need a stable political space and landscape in order for for free market, uh, space to operate where market failures

Speaker 0:
it comes into being, uh, then we just correct. That is is is the ecosystem

Speaker 0:
Well, on that note, I want to thank you all for sharing your insights into impact investing. We appreciate your time. Thank you.

Speaker 0:
Thank you.