Speaker 0:
Now, of course, there's been a lot, um, of discussion, and there's been a lot of development around infrastructure investing over the past couple of years and decades.

Speaker 0:
And in fact, it's not important to know that this has been a global discussion. It hasn't been a South Africa specific discussion, uh, internationally

Speaker 0:
invest in a very similar sort of situation we find ourselves in now. Here, of course, we've come quite a long way in the past couple of decades or years, as far as that's concerned. Some of the more recent past the events in relation to up to 45% of their infrastructure.

Speaker 0:
Fairly recent reports by the FC a report, a industry figure of 4.3 trillion that is the size of the industry as 2020. And I'm sure you know that sense is that more or less about the time of crisis?

Speaker 0:
Uh, by global standards, the level of pension fund assets is basically high GDP. We are one of the highest pension fund as G GP ras in the world. One of the that is how are we trying to find the industry

Speaker 0:
has significant need.

Speaker 0:
So really the impact that the industry can have a related basis, this should have more

Speaker 0:
so a result from objective. Of course. Uh, what means the library

Speaker 0:
and that objective, of course, should be able to compromise businesses. Otherwise, I suppose the argument can be made. That fund to fund

Speaker 0:
infrastructure is a unique vehicle, an investment vehicle, one such vehicle that can help to meet those investment objectives. While that is positive, socioeconomic and impact rate benefits for the society as a whole

Speaker 0:
again report and reference the FC a reports in March of 2022

Speaker 0:
Uh, there were 5075 070 FC pension funds and roughly well, only 1300 each of them roughly 26% of those that classified as access funds, uh, other,

Speaker 0:
and so on. Some larger than others, of course. And some actually have more resources and assets on that, right? So this key conversation is around the key conversation that can be had around collaboration take, uh so this that we have, um,

Speaker 0:
one of the Children as well as we say

Speaker 0:
we have is the managing director and a managing director who is the chief investment officer of the so thanks again for joining us on stage. Uh, so I think to keep this discussion off, let start with an open question. So as chair of the piece, you know, to give us a brief overview of basically

Speaker 0:
and once you know, some of the highest, the accomplishments that he has,

Speaker 0:
no.

Speaker 0:
So the forum is convened under the auspices of a of A.

Speaker 0:
The forum was established and officially launched in November 2021 with the intention of mobilising fund in South Africa for simple purpose, of collaborating as research for investment in infrastructure as well as in assets. Um, of the returns that pension funds and other funds seek for

Speaker 0:
themselves. The reason why infrastructure is one of the key focus areas is because of the long term nature of the asset class. And we believe as asset owners that we will be able to return in the long term. One of the key considerations of the forum is that, um, uh, infrastructure specifically will also contribute towards the, uh, economic development of the countries with the recovery

Speaker 0:
of South Africa following my experience over the last number of years, um, it will also assist us in making an impact, Um, on the various communities that we invest in as well as the value that we require, Um, and not following the transformation objectives that we seek to achieve health funding

Speaker 0:
in the country and the timing, funds and control over there. And it's very important that we allocate that money together responsibly and achieve the same goals and also to be an advocate for retirement funds as a whole. Just to summarise the one year from November 2021 to November 2022

Speaker 0:
the Asset Owners Forum members of the Forum together were able to mobilise government and invest in infrastructure related projects of just shy of 2 billion rand in just a year.

Speaker 0:
Uh, but if you look collectively with, uh, these individual retirement funds, they were able to invest just over 4.2 billion rand. Um, as discussions and collaborations were happening within the various retirement funds. So that, uh, large scale that's what the forum is about. Collaboration, advocacy, and see how we can make a difference in South Africa but not forgo the interest of our retirement funds.

Speaker 0:
And just as a follow up from that um, What would you see then? Are you from now going forward? What are your choice for human longer term goal to do over the next coming months?

Speaker 0:
So the forum currently has around 16 funds. We want to take them that membership, and that can only be achieved by us demonstrating the transparency, how the governance of the forum works, what we seek to achieve, we have to communicate more so that we can attract and give more of the funds. Confidence and the comfort that this structure will work

Speaker 0:
does demonstrate that in a year, if we are able to mobilise, collaborate, and then invest 2 billion a month each other. Uh, one of the things we seek to do as well is to attract other pension funds globally to bring in the investments into South Africa where we can coin invest with them. Uh, that also allows us to deal with our investments. They also deal with their investments. Um, and it makes it easier

Speaker 0:
for us to demonstrate the ability of government funds to invest in the South African economy. From an advocacy perspective, we will seek to influence some more, uh, where policy in So far as the government fund is concerned, as well as infrastructure investment, we cannot stress enough how important it is for us to play our part in solving the the energy crisis for investment in,

Speaker 0:
uh, energy, we see challenges with the water infrastructure and any other infrastructure investments that are sustainable. But we also guarantee that we get our risk adjusted return. So those are some of the short term to medium term plans of the forum, and we will continue to recruit more current funds into the system so that we can speak in one voice and collaboratively make a difference to South Africa. And

Speaker 0:
no, thanks for that. I suppose a national follow up question is for you. So, um, I suppose given all the, you know, advisory work that you've done internationally, uh, give us your view on the take or your take on the importance of collaboration with the

Speaker 1:
Yeah, Thank you for that question. So just a little bit of a media advisor. Media Advisor is a global advisory company that specialises in providing transaction advisory services to pension funds and other investors in Africa as well as in the US.

Speaker 1:
So specifically, we set out to find great opportunities, provide admiration, capacity and bring those opportunities to pension funds for investments. And we not talk about Pension funds are talked by both sides pension funds in the US as well as pension fund in South Africa, specifically to the consortium in South Africa Asset Owners Forum. This was an effort

Speaker 1:
supported by DFIS. Um, we got support from the United Nations support from the USA, ID and Pro Africa to work with pension funds and help them to develop themselves into consortiums. The first effort with that with that idea was in Kenya, where we developed Cafe, which is the Kenyan Infrastructure Development Fund.

Speaker 1:
And with Cafe, we have about 23 pension funds, large and small, that have come together very similar to the Asset Owners Forum and they too invested in infrastructure Well, in that market, we were fortunate to bring to their attention a road development project. This was a PPP R development project where they were looking to raise $20 million.

Speaker 1:
It was fully guaranteed by ranco. It was a relatively short term project, Um and it was a which checked up all of the boxes, but their project was overly subscribed merely by the pension fund who are members of CAFE.

Speaker 1:
But with that idea, the next step was to replicate that in South Africa and with the support from the we were able to establish the Asset Owners Forum and work with the pension funds here in South Africa who, as as indicated contributed,

Speaker 1:
I would say over 500 million rands last year to infrastructure, and that's just from some of our members. We really didn't take a look at all of our members. So there's a full commitment from the forum to invest in infrastructure and nowhere is it more important than here. As we heard this morning from our vice president or deputy president that they are looking forward to collaborate with the private sector.

Speaker 1:
Well, our pension funds are the private sector, and with media support and working collaboratively, we hope to find not one, but maybe two or three projects that we can bring forward to the attention of the forum to rally and collaborate on a con of government,

Speaker 0:
that that's an interesting point to raise. And I think we we will come back to that uh, little bit further down the line. Um, so so here. I believe, uh, the EPF is currently working on an infrastructure related investment initiative, uh, industry initiative. So can you talk us through that and just unpack what that entails at a high level? Uh, you know, just so we are suppose somewhat up to speed.

Speaker 0:
Sure. Um, thank you. And I think there's still lots of work to be done on that particular project.

Speaker 0:
But it's something that we passionately care about at the EPPF. And it's something that we've been working on on the last couple of months.

Speaker 0:
Um,

Speaker 0:
first off, let me maybe say that, um, the EPPF has been on a bit of a journey to just hone our sustainability policy a little bit more. Where do we want to invest? What do we believe and why do we believe in that? And how do we think we can most be effective? As part of that, we identified three different areas, um, climate change, social injustice, as well as economic disparity

Speaker 0:
as target areas that the typical member in our fund is struggling with. And therefore I would go as far as saying the typical South African as well

Speaker 0:
So we have been on a journey as the EPPF from a financial perspective to say, Well, of course, we are there to get the risk and return with the benefits for the members of our fund and make sure that they can one day retire. But what else can we do? What are the biggest challenges that they're facing? And I think we all know as pension funds sitting here, that the big challenge for us, especially in the infrastructure space, is that

Speaker 0:
a lot of pension funds, ideally, would like to invest in it. They, they typically would benefit from it. For all the reasons that that Musa also said, before the long liability matching criteria cash flow matching in our own instances, a defined benefit fund, um, diversification, additional yield I mean there there's so many benefits to it.

Speaker 0:
And then, from a sustainability perspective, you can of course, also make sure that you help restart the economy and invest in a society and in an economy where the members will ultimately retire. But we can go at it alone as the EPPF, or we can say that a big part of the,

Speaker 0:
uh economic disparity problem that we are sitting with in South Africa is actually that infrastructure investment is not democratised for the typical pension fund or the smaller pension funds, at least,

Speaker 0:
and certainly also not for the retail advisor, the typical retail investor, the typical man on the street that that also wants to put money into infrastructure. But they don't have an avenue to do. So right now, there's there's not a proper legal vehicle for them.

Speaker 0:
Um, so for various reasons we've been investigating, how can we play our part? Also, because EPPF has a strong history, um, credential as being a leader in the industry. But what can we do more as as the EPPF for ourselves, for the members in our fund? But it will be great if we can also mobilise all the industry assets.

Speaker 0:
So we have been working on a project where we can create and these different vehicles different options that we are investigating, but where we can really start pulling more assets so that we can risk share between different pension funds, that we can have a greater collective bargaining power. Uh, that we could be more deliberate in in sharing between investment opportunities But we do so

Speaker 0:
by pulling our knowledge, pulling our resources, pulling our views about what is important for pension funds in South Africa and making sure that we create something that will really address this democratisation for for other pension funds as well.

Speaker 0:
So if we can get it right, um I mean, it certainly talks to the points made earlier about collaboration and being innovative, uh, from an industry perspective and as asset owners, pension funds, being innovative in trying to solve all the economic problems in South Africa. But it certainly is also something that we feel will be tremendously powerful For pension funds to be able to access,

Speaker 0:
we can create the right structure of the right vehicle. Of course, there are already different vehicles and funds and opportunities in the market that you can invest in. But we're trying to really, at a larger scale mobilise more of the assets together so that we can diversify between different investment opportunities and make it as transparent and accessible and understandable as possible.

Speaker 0:
And, um, I think as a follow on from that, uh, I, I suppose you know, having the EPPF or pension fund with that type of track record. Of course you know it. It it's quite a, you know, good message in the sense of having a strong a investor to that type of vehicle. But how, then, do you see that the interplay between the likes of the is formed as an entity versus that initiative by the EFF. I mean, would they sort of play somewhat of a complementary role? Um, you know,

Speaker 0:
at a high level, I suppose. What's the between the, uh, the two?

Speaker 0:
Yeah. I. I think as as the chief investment officer at the E PB F, my first and foremost priority is to do right, as if I usually to the members in the E PB F Fund.

Speaker 0:
If I could do right by members by also doing right by other members in the country that you know, it's a double win. So I see it as a complementary strategy from from my involvement since I joined the fund. Uh, the asset owner forum is there to try and mobilise more thought leadership to to come up with innovative solutions and to be more effective as an industry. So to that extent, I think it

Speaker 0:
it does help us be able to solve from a fund you perspective for our members in our own fund. But it is if we do this in the right way and we tackle it in the right way, and it certainly is something that the rest of the industry can also benefit. So I think that just that collaboration of sharing knowledge sharing experience, um, to collectively ask questions about what the risks are, how we can deal with it

Speaker 0:
again. The the the principle of sharing between the risk, uh, in the risk between different pension funds, I think is very valuable.

Speaker 0:
And and it helps us to look at different investment opportunities where a pension fund on its own will need to work via their advisors and their own investment teams, depending on how they set up and make the call just solely for that particular pension fund. So now we can Still each fund obviously still have their own financial duty and need to make their own investment decisions about what's appropriate for them.

Speaker 0:
But overall, as an industry, I believe that we can be more effective. We can work with the rest of the ecosystem, understand where the government can play a role and we can collaborate better with government how we can work with fund managers in the market and how we can harness the best of our skills together but at a greater scale so that we can be more effective. So I see it as an enhancement and and certainly in parallel with the intent of the asset owner.

Speaker 0:
Alright, so just as a I suppose. Let me just bring the question back to Mosa. Uh, you touched on it a little bit, you know, in in your opening answer. But can you share your thoughts on how I suppose adding more members in terms of, you know, pension funds themselves to their form is going to benefit both the funds themselves and membership of those funds as well as you know, the broader stakeholders? Uh, perhaps even service providers and so on and so forth.

Speaker 0:
She has some thoughts around how that dynamic will play out.

Speaker 0:
Thanks. So just touch on on one of the benefits being the ability to share costs and and sharing knowledge. So economics of scale assist a lot. In that respect, we will be able to to share our knowledge as as the various department funds, as well as giving each other access to to different opportunities. So if a fund within the forum has exposure to

Speaker 0:
the project and they make it available to other funds within the forum, if any of the funds who are in the forum, uh, find that attractive, they they are able to take it to the whole government structure and they can invest in it. So it's the power of pulling and collaboration yet again. So you can also scale that allow us to save on costs costs. One of the things I forgot to mention in the opening around

Speaker 0:
What the forum is all about is the autonomy of each retirement fund to make investment decisions so that we can agree on the available projects and the strategy that we want to follow. But investment decision rests with the respective funds, so we are then able to spend collectively on due diligence. But we can also negotiate fees with managers to the extent that we are able to negotiate

Speaker 0:
thing. So it's it's the benefit of of fully collaborating and having an influence in the the final cost structures. There's also the ability for for the new funds as well, especially the smaller funds, um, to to gain access to research, uh, that maybe the the larger funds who have already spent money on that research will also benefit from. So there are many avenues, especially the part I mentioned around us trying to attract

Speaker 0:
foreign pension funds to invest alongside us in South Africa. What it does do is assist us as well. If we want to diversify offshore, we can work through those relationships to get exposure and derisk our offshore exposures through the same arrangements that we're trying to achieve. So it works both ways. It's more around de risk sharing the the the risk with other pension funds, but access to to opportunities and knowledge.

Speaker 0:
OK, so just a reminder. Uh, I think, uh, we're going to open up the, uh, the the question, uh, call effectively quite soon. So, uh, you can you do have the option to ask questions on going to open? Um, you know, if you have questions in about, um, a few minutes, 54 minutes, uh, or you can take you know, your questions on to the platform.

Speaker 0:
Um, but you know, I'm just gonna sort of start to round up, you know, our initial sort of discussion on the on the panel here. So do you see any value from the well, as far as co investment Co co investment? Sorry. Concerned from a cross border perspective with the likes of, you know, European or US pension funds. Uh, what's your view on that?

Speaker 0:
Over and above the the ability to deal this. Obviously, from a fund perspective, it's also foreign direct investment for South Africa itself. Uh, it will allow us to to demonstrate the the the confidence that we have in S A Inc first of all, but it allows us the opportunity because these foreign funds with the stronger currencies that they have

Speaker 0:
for them, what they are bringing in is a smaller amount relative to what we have. So we're able to deploy more into the projects in our own country and be able to make a bigger impact. So from our perspective as a follow up, we see this as a way of us bringing in large sums of money without necessarily putting in a lot of money because of

Speaker 0:
foreign currency exposures that the other funds have. For them, the risk is less. In some of the engagements that we had last year, Roslin was able to bring a group of pension funds from the US, and some of the numbers that they were throwing around were very small. We we had indicated appetite for were small to them, but I think it would be comfortable to match such numbers.

Speaker 0:
So that is the ability for us firstly, to coins with them. The is for our own funds, but also bring in the the those foreign currencies to help South Africa grow and demonstrate that there are sufficient controls because of the large sums of money that we control. We are an alternative to assisting government as well as the private sector to achieve some of the economic goals of the country.

Speaker 1:
So if I could just piggyback off what I talked about, it's a delegation trip, right? So for the past five years,

Speaker 1:
with support from USAID and Prosper Africa, we have been bringing delegates on pension funds, US pension funds to South Africa to collaborate and have an exchange with South African pension funds and especially with the members of the Asset Owners Forum. So part of that mandate is coin investments. And when we talk about co investments, we talk about it both ways. Coin investing with

Speaker 1:
African pension funds with investments in South Africa, as well as investing in the US with US pension funds. So it goes both ways, and that's the value of the value proposition that media brings to the table. So we bring pension funds from the US large and small pension funds to meet with the Asset Owners Forum and with other pension funds and

Speaker 1:
fund managers in South Africa to have an exchange and a discussion about Where do we align? And what is that project that we can invest collectively with so going forward in terms of next steps? You know, the pulling figure on the pulling mechanism where we can be inclusive and bring in some of our smaller pension funds is is part of our next steps

Speaker 1:
promoting and finding co investors in Europe as well as in the US to invest alongside us, most especially in opportunities here in South Africa.

Speaker 1:
So in November, actually, it's September end of September. Beginning of October, we're going to piggy back the US delegation is going to piggy back on the GEPF conference, and we're bringing a delegation again with investors, consultants, banks and other industry partners

Speaker 1:
to have an exchange and to take a look at existing opportunities that US pension funds have invested in here in South Africa. But we believe that more can be done. There's a tremendous amount of money that could be mobilised into infrastructure in South Africa. So coin investments is very important. And it is something that is our next step and something we will be looking forward to.

Speaker 0:
OK, thanks very much. So, uh, I'm going to open the floor up for for questions at the stage. Thank you. Gentleman.

Speaker 0:
Um, my name is, uh, from UN Corporation. Um, I just want to add a question to the chair of the forum. Um, you mentioned the about the investment on infrastructure out of of of their members, and the amount was given and also individually, um, funds. So I just want to check in terms now of that particular infrastructure investment. Um, is it, uh,

Speaker 0:
build the wall or everybody goes to build a large court house? Uh, that's the number one and number two in relation to the the area of the infrastructure investment.

Speaker 0:
Um, urban and the rural. Is there any infrastructure or investment that is done in the rural towns? In the sense that, um, your, uh, provinces and Limpopo and we know the towns there when you call the town? Um, the the roads, the roads from the town to the villages are bad, so I mean, and also the the the the money that is here is the money of the workers that are coming from those

Speaker 0:
areas. So what is it that is in place that we put in place is that to ensure the investment infrastructure also touches our rural towns? Uh, and the last one I talk about transformation, um, in relation to the allocation, Uh, by the by the trustees, uh, we've got the traditional let me say investment asset managers, and we also have the emerging of black women. Uh, asset managers. What is the picture of the allocation

Speaker 0:
to those funds? We, uh, put money to the traditional ones for 10 billion, and we put one year, 2 billion to the dead. Um um, small asset managers. I just want to get the picture of the allocation, uh, from the fund themselves.

Speaker 0:
Thank you. I'll deal with the first question. And the second question. We can share the third question in terms of the close to 2 billion rand that was invested through the facilitation of the forum. The bulk of it was social housing,

Speaker 0:
um, and as well as energy infrastructure was also energy through an energy fund. So that that's the 2 billion rand, the other 4.2 billion that I mentioned that the individual funds invested in cut across various infrastructure related assets and projects and and that is not accounted for. And it was not facilitated by the foreign.

Speaker 0:
Um, on your second question on whether funds invest in the communities and the roads or infrastructure where where members of of these funds reside. That touches on the aspect of impact that most funds, uh, seek to achieve. So when we invest, we

Speaker 0:
ensure that we include an aspect of impact. How should we impact the the communities and the lives and the members whose money it is that we are investing in? So the township economy and I speak from a GP F perspective. We investing in township economy. We've got access to

Speaker 0:
um, retail centres in the township economy. We build hospitals in in in countries as well. We invest in those. However, there is a balance between building or investing in these sectors and ensuring that you still get an economy to return over and above the social. So those are the aspects that we're trying to drive when we implement our EG policies, our responsible investment policies,

Speaker 0:
looking for the impact, not only our economic return, so that's what he is striving for. One of the the questions that the chair asked was What is it that we're trying to do in the short to medium term is also in changing this transformation aspect, making sure that our ESG policies are being implemented and felt across the portfolio that we invest in so that the impact

Speaker 0:
for investment is felt and enjoyed by our members while they're still in active service. So that's one of the key sectors, and I must admit that we have not done enough in those sectors, largely because of a shortage of bankable projects. Um, because we we invested for a return to ensure the sustainability of the funds that we were entrusted with all the projects we invest in have to be

Speaker 0:
so that we can justify why we invested in those. So there is a need for us to invest in those sectors so that members can benefit. But there is a need to balance both the ability as well as the social return. But there is a lot of work for us to do to deploy more money in those sectors. So so certainly on the project, we

Speaker 0:
is the main sponsor going forward. We

Speaker 0:
we have tried to define it as broad as possible so that all regional areas of the country are affected. Um I. I think that was a specific request from the Asset Owner forum that that we think as widely as possible from a membership basis and also the fact that liabilities for those members reside in different places within South Africa. So inflation baskets, um, transport

Speaker 0:
how much money people can spend to go to a shop and buy something, whether there's healthcare facilities, whether

Speaker 0:
they can send their Children to educational facilities close by. All of those things are our key considerations into how we do it.

Speaker 0:
Um, we therefore probably will diversify across the capital spectrum into, uh, fixed income type of opportunities as well as equity opportunities across various sectors. It's it's the debt is not for it to be focused on just one specific impact or STG or sustainable development role for pension funds. But we do think if we put the right framework together and we go across different diversity

Speaker 0:
sectors, that we will be be able to satisfy the need for pension funds to also demonstrate the impact and to be more targeted with with the money that flows. Um also just wanted to add quickly that the UN put out a a fascinating paper that that Ross team actually shared with me a while ago.

Speaker 0:
Um, it it's the Commission Economic Commission for Africa that they put out a paper for our African country should be responsive as pension funds to mobilise towards infrastructure. And I think that's something that that everyone will benefit from the thinking behind it, what their recommendations are because it's a lot of the similar principles that we'd like to follow

Speaker 0:
in accommodating different pension funds. As as Musa said, also still, within the context of their own financial perspective, but to make sure that it's it's not purely developmental impact that we invest for. It's a financial problem that we're solving for, but that we also have impact by virtue of how we invest. So I think we're trying to go as broad as possible from a sector as well as a geographic perspective.

Speaker 0:
You,

Speaker 0:
um I do see we are sort of almost running out of time. Uh, I would say one or two other questions, and then you you do you want to comment on something because the last part of the question was on transformation, especially for a few agent managers. That's something that the advance is committed to. Um,

Speaker 0:
we are now focusing on women owned asset managers. So that's something we're going to be driving short to medium term and asset owners, for We were deliberate around allocating capital for management by those sectors as part of our contribution towards transforming this industry.

Speaker 1:
If I could just add to that comment of the amount that was raised last year, they invested in infrastructure. 100 and 30 million came from a pipeline of opportunities that media and Cross had developed for consideration by the forum. Out of that amount, about 55% was allocated to women and other emerging managers.

Speaker 1:
It it just happened. And these were good managers, good products and

Speaker 1:
will provide the return as expected, we hope strong risk adjusted returns. So for the Asset Owners Forum, the transformation is very important. The consideration for the level of the managers or level of participation is very key, as we do our evaluation of fund managers that we bring forward.

Speaker 1:
So very pleased to see that some of these managers were first time fundraisers

Speaker 1:
supporting women supporting emerging managers. Supporting the transformation is a very strong focus of the asset owners Forum.

Speaker 0:
OK, some very interesting questions are coming in, but, uh, we are sort of short on time. So I'm gonna, I suppose, to close off on two questions. Uh, one is for yourself, Sonya. So the first question is, how will funds access? The structure of the EPPF is conceptualising will, uh, EPPF sponsor a platform or set up refunding. I suppose that talks to the structure of the envisioned. Um,

Speaker 0:
yes, that's something that we've been discussing extensively that that you almost need someone just to be able to to create a vehicle that's live and can be priced and custodian sorted out. And there's a mandate. The governance structure is set up, and and I guess that's the leadership role that we're up for.

Speaker 0:
But, yes, we we already sort of in the process of establishing a committee where we get, uh, other input. We've We've been brainstorming some ideas. It's it's been fascinating what ideas people have been sending in and what things different Pension funds are asking us

Speaker 0:
to address this this as part of this, the vehicle and the pulling mechanism that we're trying to create. So, yes, the idea is that you need someone to take leave to create it so that it's life. There's very specific legislative hurdles and things that we also want to cross.

Speaker 0:
Uh, we, ideally looking at a listed space to to see if we can make it more accessible and therefore helping with the democratisation of of access to infrastructure. As I said earlier, for all of those reasons, there's a lot of work we're doing with the stock exchange and with the rest of the ecosystem, so that we actually can harness something but we welcome other pension funds to be involved and

Speaker 0:
be looking for what? What will mobilise assets more successfully?

Speaker 0:
OK, then, final closing Question. Um, most funds. I suppose this could be addressed to yourself or to To to in fact, you know, I suppose, an opening question for the panel. But, uh, most funds use investment consultants to provide guidance on asset allocation, manager research and allocation. Uh, they believe that, um, to sorry. They believe that to be their IP. How do they facilitate for collaboration in that type of environmental context?

Speaker 0:
Well, I think we have to go back to How do we determine our strategy as the location from a defined benefit perspective? And I speak for GP F. We follow a liability to an investment approach. So we first look at our liabilities, the complex of our liabilities, and what strategy will then inform men on those liabilities? So it's not necessarily the

Speaker 0:
is telling us how we should invest. It's how those assets, what assets we need to specialise that we have. So it's It's more complicated than just, uh as consultants telling us how to. But the question might be more complicated than them, too. So more liability to it and then matching those liabilities Based on what? The long term nature of the plan.

Speaker 0:
All right, well, thank you. We have, uh, unfortunately run out of time. And, you know, I feel like this conversation would have gone on for, you know, an additional 30 minutes very easily, but we have to cut it off somewhere. Uh, I'd like to thank you for coming on stage and helping us facilitate this discussion. Uh, yeah. That being said, I'll close this session.

Speaker 0:
Thanks very much.