Speaker 0:
Hello and welcome to this session on the Climate Summit. The role of asset owners in addressing climate change. I am joined today by Musa Masa, principal officer at the Government Employees Pension Fund, principal officer at the Telkom Retirement Fund, as well as Shafik Abrams, chief executive and principal officer at the Eskom Pension and Provident Fund.

Speaker 0:
Welcome to you all,

Speaker 0:
thank you

Speaker 0:
So according to a Bloomberg Green report published in 2021 South Africa ranks as the 12th highest carbon emission globally, predominantly due to our country's reliance on coal fired power plants. South Africa's carbon emissions still constitutes approximately 1% of carbon emissions globally, which is dwarfed by China, which is ranked at number one but at 36% of global carbon emissions.

Speaker 0:
So, Shafik, then how can South Africa make a meaningful contribution and difference through decarbonisation If we contribute so little to global carbon emissions?

Speaker 0:
Yeah, that's I think, I think the issue of Of of carbon emissions one it lends itself to expect larger economies who are, uh uh uh uh uh the largest emitters to to do their part and to play a bigger role than I think they do. But it also calls for all countries to to make its its, uh, contribution, uh, so that we can have collective impact, uh, and outcomes that that's required.

Speaker 0:
Now, while we may be the 12th largest emitter, we also have reports that say, uh, emissions per capita are also one of the highest in the world. So we also have to deal with that. And so how countries will deal with it is typically through either through, uh, carbon taxes that sends price signals into the economy or through a decarbonisation of of the energy mix. Uh, that that that that tend to fuel the economies,

Speaker 0:
uh, and therefore less reliance on fossil fuels, uh, and utilisation of of green energy and other alternative sources. But ultimately, it's about sending signals back into the economy. Uh, that that tends to discourage the use of carbon, uh, and substitute it for, for, for for alternatives. Now, with that said, we also have to locate that conversation within the context of each country,

Speaker 0:
uh, in terms of what's possible, what's practical, uh, and how far we can make the impact and given some of the social changes and social impacts uh, particularly in a country like South Africa, one has to be sensitive to the, uh, initiatives or instruments that we use and the approach that it must be done in a socially sensitive way. Uh, while ultimately con making our contribution to the global, uh, targets as well.

Speaker 0:
So, Lisa, don't you agree, then? The largest carbon emitters, such as China, India and the States, should be driving more aggressive decarbonisation efforts. And what are the role then of local assets owners and large pension funds in driving change? Um, through their global allocations to these countries.

Speaker 1:
Thanks. You are correct. The largest emitters should be,

Speaker 1:
uh, driving more efforts to to to reduce carbon emissions and lead the decarbonisation efforts. And I think some of them are demonstrating these efforts like the US, by playing a role in providing, uh, resources the financial resources, like we've seen they form part of that $8.5 billion. Um, that has been committed towards the JP programme, uh, towards South Africa. So they do try and play a part 11 way or another. Um, but the cost

Speaker 1:
tax matters, um, if their economy still relies on on on some of these, uh, fossil fuels, um, to provide energy to themselves, they will find other means, um, to to generate energy, uh, and maybe find other ways through providing credits to ourselves, be it through funding or or whatever means. So it is correct that they have to find, um, alternative ways to reduce their carbon footprint in terms of our allocations, especially through the strategic asset allocations that we

Speaker 1:
we hold, Uh, the foreign allocations that we need to have We need to be intentional as well about how we we allocate, uh, investments. But we must be careful not to shoot ourselves in the foot as we try and seek foreign direct investments into our country. So we need to balance the need, uh, to attract foreign direct investment, especially from the collaboration that I spoke about, that we need to bring in, um partners into to South Africa alongside ourselves in in in the form of retirement.

Speaker 1:
Want to invest with us in these renewable energy projects, infrastructure projects for the advancement of our retirement funds. However, we must be conscious of the impact of driving away investments into these foreign locations because we're trying to send a message about the DECARBONIZATION and and reducing the carbon footprint in those countries that are deemed high emitters. So we need to balance that. That that discussion with the need for foreign direct investment in our collaboration agenda.

Speaker 0:
So what? We agreed to what Musa has highlighted. And what do you believe are the role of asset owners, um, within their global allocations to large emitting countries?

Speaker 0:
Yeah. Um, thanks. Thanks. Look, I I I believe that the role of, um, asset owners is is important, uh, balancing the requirements of our local economy, uh, versus, um, our interest or the needs of our members. We cannot ignore the largest emitters as they are probably our biggest trading partners. Um, we are conscious that the world is burning. Uh, there's forest fires. Uh, the ocean is getting warmer.

Speaker 0:
Um, you have the Arctic. That's melting. Definitely. We are hurting our planet, and we are also a a contributor. But however, um, I believe that the the larger, um uh, emitters, they should play a lot a much larger role, uh, in reducing their emissions over time. It makes no, um, sense or difference to us

Speaker 0:
in the lip. service that I feel has been given over the last number of years. Um, a asset owners, I think, are conscious of the emissions. Um, but I I tend to think that the returns and the opportunities of diversification into these larger emitters far outweigh what our, um, local asset owners are concentrating on. Um, And I think,

Speaker 0:
um, it is perhaps one of those discussions that need to be, uh, emphasised, particularly into, uh, industry forums, uh, et cetera. As to as a collective what power? We can encourage those, uh, emitters, um, to reduce their emissions. Um, over time,

Speaker 0:
um, the likes of cop 21 where promises were made by 2015, the UK. Was targeting zero emissions. I think. I don't think they they have met that now. There's, um 2050. I think that we are also, um, looking at, um so that I think in in the mixed mixed of, uh, asset allocation. Uh, risk and return your, um, need to grow your your assets,

Speaker 0:
uh, so that your members can have a future that is sustainable to live in. We are conscious of it, but it is a discussion that needs to be brought a lot more to the forefront.

Speaker 0:
Thank you. Come on. So

Speaker 0:
So then sometimes it's It's a Catch 22. These large, high carbon emitting countries are predominant users of South Africa's locally, um, extracted and exported coal. So through their decarbonisation path, what could be the unintended consequences on our local economy?

Speaker 0:
Absolutely. Uh, Gloria, I think if we look at countries like South Africa, Australia, Indonesia, we are we are coal exporters and and and, uh, by decarbonising, uh, certain countries, our exports will reduce. And that has a direct impact on communities. Uh, in South Africa and other other countries, like ourselves, Right? And then you what that results in is, uh, job losses, uh, social, uh, social ills and impacts.

Speaker 0:
And so these are the the effects of of the decarbonisation programme. Uh, these are the ramifications that one must prepare for. And this is why, as, uh, asset owners, we take a view that the approach must be a balanced approach. And that's what we call the just transition

Speaker 0:
that as we transition to a decarbonise environment, we need to replace it with, uh with infrastructure, uh, manufacturing capabilities and job creating activities that give, uh, communities alternatives, uh, in a way that sustains them, uh, and provides the livelihoods that that that they need. And so, yes, it it is a reality. But it's a reality that must be confronted through the just energy transition

Speaker 0:
and through our engagements with, uh, large countries and companies. Uh, these are the positions we need to make clear and explicit,

Speaker 0:
uh, so that everyone is sensitive to the social impacts on on developing countries. Like like ourselves. Tsoi, you mentioned earlier that asset owners need to balance their primary objective toward their members as well as driving change. Um, through client resilient technologies and infrastructure, high asset owners integrate sustainability then into their investment strategy while keeping members well-being and retirement their primary objective.

Speaker 0:
Um, thanks, Chloe, for that, I I think that's a That's a That's an interesting question. And the reason I say that is there is no point in investing if we will not have a world to live in.

Speaker 0:
Um, sustainability is a key key, um, requirement in all the funds investment decisions.

Speaker 0:
It makes no sense in the money being somewhere invested unsustainably for people to then reach retirement age and not have a world to retire in. And I think this whole issue of carbon emissions decarbonisation renewable energy infrastructure is basically trying to answer that question that will we have a, uh, AAA world to retire in? Uh, I I mentioned earlier on We are seeing very, uh, sporadic weather conditions.

Speaker 0:
And that's mother Nature warning us that you are not treating me well. And if the largest capital distributors or or or capital allocators are not aware and are putting in place, um, in investment strategies or they're not allocating into sustainable projects, Unfortunately, we will not have a world to live in.

Speaker 0:
So yes, we are. We are, uh I think that the South African, uh, pension funds are a bit slow in that we are not demanding as much from our companies to reduce their carbon footprint. Uh, ensure that the environment is taken care of social. We are taking care of the governance of the boards and companies is, is is is ensure sustainability.

Speaker 0:
But it is a conversation, as my colleague Musa has said, that will grow in time as we have more and more of these forums that sustainability does not become a tick box, Tick tick box. Um uh uh uh, issue. But it is actually enforced in our investment decisions and allocation so that we do take care of this planet because we only have one shot, one shot at getting it right. We have abused Mother Nature for too long.

Speaker 0:
We now need to put in place. Um, uh, investment and invest make investment decisions that ensure the sustainability of our our world that our members we retire will ultimately live in.

Speaker 0:
Thank you.

Speaker 0:
So, to the end of last year, the EU implemented their carbon borders tax. How would exports from from South Africa towards the EU be affected by this new, um, regulation?

Speaker 1:
So we would then have to reduce the number of exports into the EU because of this, uh, introduction, Uh, because of these taxes that they've introduced, uh, and that places a lot of pressure on on our exports, and definitely our economy and the production, uh, levels would have to be reduced in our country. So we have to think proactively as a country of how and which trading partners that would have to look at, but I think

Speaker 1:
going into the future, But it then means is we have to change our approach as a country and start investing in in in newer and more sustainable, um, economies and and and factories And look at how we can move away from these, um, carbon emitting, um, investments so that we can start exporting to to the EU. The EU is a huge trading partner of of South Africa. So we can't afford to lose, um, that

Speaker 1:
territory as part of our trading, uh, partner. So we need to start looking at better ways for us to to benefit ourselves into the future. And the practises should start changing now. Otherwise we'll pay for it going into the future. So it starts with us as investors. Um, we are large allocators of capital, as as mentioned earlier by by by my colleagues. And we need to start investing in those sustainable, um, investments so we can change the

Speaker 1:
it will not happen overnight. And that is the context that we need to appreciate, uh, in these discussions, and as we start investing and as the leaders in this investment space, we need to demonstrate by putting the money, um, in these investments and then demonstrated by partnering with those people who have already done it. Uh, because through partnerships, we can demonstrate that these things can be done. Uh, and our efforts will then be rewarded in the long term.

Speaker 0:
Absolutely. Thank you, Mosa. So So I want to understand what role does the South African government have to play in decarbonising our local economy and investing in adaptive technologies to mitigate against the effects of climate change such as droughts and extreme weather events?

Speaker 0:
Yeah. So I I think this the South African government is in a is in a predicament. Uh, this is not an easy policy position or, um, stance that they can take either way. Um, you know, I know we a couple, I think 2021. We received an 8.5 billion rand, um, donation to to help with, uh, just energy transition and and reducing our carbon emissions,

Speaker 0:
you know. But, uh, the question is, where Where has that money gone? As as, um, Musa has said we are, uh, large allocators of capital. Uh, we are involved in renewable energy infrastructure, but we are yet to see that, um, commitment from from from government. Um in these projects that that we deem, um, sustainable and bankable for in the near future.

Speaker 0:
I mean, the the government should should should I think, uh, prioritise, you know, different industries, like hydro, um, and then the n word and nuclear. Um, perhaps that's one of the energies that we could revisit. Uh, considering that we want to reduce our coal emissions. Although we're not a a very large emitter, um, maybe I think the the the number was the the 12, um, biofuel. Uh, Geo geothermal technologies.

Speaker 0:
You know, those Those are, I think, technologies that are becoming more and more available, um, in in in our space that the government should put, uh, an effort, uh, in in in, um, capacitate it in terms of capital. Um, so that these projects can take Grant. I mean, agriculture is is one of our, um, one of the global emitters, Uh, with methane gases,

Speaker 0:
uh, et cetera. The transportation, the plan feed, uh, etcetera and South Africa is is is, I think, a powerhouse in terms of agricultural production.

Speaker 0:
Um, how do we then counteract, uh, droughts, et cetera. There are smart technologies that are there are a few companies. I I I I read an article in From From Cape Town, um, where they're using drones to survey land to predict, uh, weather patterns, et cetera. So the technology is becoming more and more, um, available.

Speaker 0:
It is about accessing that technology and making sure that, um, they are supported and so that it can be rolled out on a on A on a much bigger scale. The US is already ahead of us in, um, trying to determine and predict, um, weather patterns, et cetera. Um, so I would think that that that would be industry that

Speaker 0:
the government should look at. But also, as I said, this is quite a difficult position. We know that, um, government subsidises, uh, mining companies, Um uh uh, in terms of the I think electricity, you know what, what does that say? Given that mining and the the the the the minerals that are extracted contribute to, um, uh, the destruction of our environment,

Speaker 0:
what is government saying, um, to to to to the industry that you are subsidising an industry that is harming our planet. Um, so it it's a difficult, difficult, uh, matter that, uh, will require multiple levers from a policy perspective to implement?

Speaker 0:
No, Absolutely. And it seems like it's a multi stakeholder engagement, um, pathway. But you mentioned the jet p programme, the just energy transition programme. Um, what is the role of asset owners in this just energy transition programme? Shafiq

Speaker 0:
Yeah, I think it's a nice opportunity as as South Africa adopted just, uh the IP programme, uh, to crowd in investment one

Speaker 0:
critical to that is the the the investment in infrastructure which asset owners are. It's an asset class which, uh, asset owners is quite attracted to asset owners. So this creates an opportunity for us to invest in infrastructure. In investing in infrastructure, we decarbonise the environment. We invest in new industries such as electric er, electric vehicles, green hydrogen, et cetera, and that spurs the economy on it creates a competitive economy and creates jobs for our people. Right.

Speaker 0:
But at the same time, we do have a role to play around the socialisation of the just just a just transition programme amongst our members to educate lead and influence, uh, perception and positions around the just energy transition so we can make it a success. But ultimately we look forward to a position where we can generate returns.

Speaker 0:
Uh, that can honour the liabilities as well to the to, To to our members. So I do think it's an ideal position, a position for us to crowd in investment and get things going. But also to take the country forward, uh, and to position the competitors of the of the economy in a global economy.

Speaker 0:
Musa, would you agree with what Shafik has said? And from your perspective, the G e p f. The largest assets owner on the continent. What role do you, um, play in driving the just energy transition programme?

Speaker 1:
Thanks, Chloe. Yes, I agree with Shafik. Um, we we have a big role to play as as asset owners. Um, and, uh, investing alongside all the stakeholders that are committed to the the jet P programme is important. Uh, just to add to what, uh, has mentioned around the $8.5 billion that has been committed towards the jet P programme. Uh, the makeup of that 8.5 billion is also very interesting is that it's not only a donation, um, it's not grants, but

Speaker 1:
it it's also, uh, loans in there. So it's it's It's very important when we commit to investing alongside, uh, government and and and these donors and the loans that are being granted that we're mindful of of the the structures that have been put in place so that we are aware of the securities and and the protections that are afforded to to ourselves when we invest alongside, um, the these partners. Shafiq indicated correctly that we we are long term investors. So infrastructure

Speaker 1:
investments are ideal for for for retirement funds like ourselves. So we find this as an attractive, um, asset plus, uh, infrastructure itself. But because it's it's renewable energy, uh, related investments. We welcome those those investments and are very supportive of those investments going into the future. So we are very supportive of of the initiative. And we will find, um, sustainable ways of, of investing alongside government as well as other partners in this regard,

Speaker 0:
and to continue your point with all this investment in renewable energy and E. E s G. What is the evidence for economic or financial returns for members?

Speaker 1:
So I think we we believe because we are a long term investor, we believe that the the returns. Both the the environmental, the social as well as the economic returns of all these sustainable investments are only derived over a long term period.

Speaker 1:
Um, and and as patient investors, we believe that these returns are only economic returns will be realised over the long term. So some investors may be impatient. Um, and this is a long game that that all investors need to to understand and play. So our role in in this is is more about educating and communicating What the the role of of, um, investing in sustainable investment is is about so if once you start seeing the benefits, we we know in discussions with

Speaker 1:
other investors globally, those that have started this e s g journey, sustainability journey over the years they started seeing the economic returns from these sustainable investments that they started, uh, investing in years ago, Before we even started thinking about it, uh, they started seeing these better returns economic returns, uh, which some people are yet to be convinced of. So because we are long term patient investors, we believe that if we start changing our practises being more sustainable, finding these, um

Speaker 1:
uh green investments that we can invest in. It will be, um, uh, rewarding for us in the long term. And we believe in that because we've we've signed up, uh, as signatories, for example, to the the UN PR I locally the the code for responsible investment.

Speaker 1:
Uh, so we do believe in these practises, and we have our own responsible investment policies locally. And we inculcate these practises in our investments because we believe the sustainability of our investments will ensure that we have a planet, um, to live in in the long term.

Speaker 0:
Thank you, Ms. So So I'm going to bring you in here. Um, Musa mentioned policymakers. Perhaps we can explore the idea of policymakers possibly making decarbonisation, um, compulsory. And perhaps do you think compulsion would discourage or possibly encourage participation from other investors?

Speaker 0:
Uh, thanks for that one. Um, look, I I think it's it. It goes back to the earlier discussions that we had. It has to be just, uh we must be sensitive to what other industries we are affecting when we decarbonise, um you know, our our our our economy, I think, is largely, uh, third world. Uh uh. To a certain extent. Um, therefore decarbonisation and it being compulsory might have unintended consequences.

Speaker 0:
Um, you know, we're talking about, uh uh uh reducing, um, carbon emissions, uh, less cars on the road, et cetera, et cetera. Um, going electric. But how many of our population really have access? Uh, to those sort of, um, uh, modes of transport. Um, we have the gau train in, In, in, in, In, in Johannesburg, I think. At last, uh, reported, uh uh, articles. They were having financial difficulties.

Speaker 0:
And it it tells you that the the is the economy and the population ready, uh, for such, um, drastic, I think, um uh, legislation. So I think I think it it for large asset owners, it could perhaps make sense because I think those investments are, uh, a lot more sophisticated. The boards understand their responsibility, uh, towards the red in, in in, in carbon carbon emissions and decarbonisation et cetera.

Speaker 0:
Um, but for for an asset for an asset owner looking after a 200 million rand fund,

Speaker 0:
Uh, I am not sure that discussion is top of mind. And that is where my colleagues have highlighted the need to club in, uh to uh, collaborate, you know, So that you you it it is. It doesn't become 20% of the funds

Speaker 0:
a total investment strategy, um, to decarbonise. And they will simply say no. We are not interested. You know, once you get to, um, larger asset owners, the discussion is a little bit more different because you are exposed to that. You have the balance sheet, um, to consider, um

Speaker 0:
uh, different alternate or different alternative process. It would be a very difficult conversation explaining to a member why you are not investing in S O, for example, and you mention carbon emissions, but their share price is skyrocketing. So I I I do I'm not really 100% convinced that it should be mandatory. Uh, or government should legislate that, Uh, decarbonisation must be mandatory. I I I do not. I'm not. I'm not convinced on on on that argument yet.

Speaker 0:
Thank you.

Speaker 0:
So with a lot of these renewable energy projects that the assets owners are investing in sometimes requires foreign investments as well. What can encourage foreign foreign investments within some of these projects? And how can they be assured that their risks were mitigated?

Speaker 0:
Yeah. So typically any investor flow you requires certainty, right? Uh, typically in infrastructure, you put in out investments for a 20 year period.

Speaker 0:
Uh, so you want to have certainty around the regulatory framework, for example? Uh, what? The pricing, uh, framework is gonna be like and you want to have certainty around how that pricing framework is gonna be right. You want to have certainty around how we're gonna deal with the energy mix, right? And then there's not gonna be a a reversal of our of our renewable programme, for example,

Speaker 0:
uh, and then you you also need investor confidence around, uh, the ability to distribute returns back into the, uh, back to the investors. Uh, and so all of these together with the different risk. And if the if the risk the the returns are commanded for the risk that you take in, we do believe that, uh, foreign investors will have an appetite for it. And we've seen it in South Africa. Uh, we see it globally as well. So So

Speaker 0:
what's critical is to take to deal this projects from a uncertainty position, but also to do that through a policy environment that enabling,

Speaker 0:
and it's very clear and consistent. And and And that the the leaders that create these these these instruments, uh, commit to those the the the to those policy in. So I think once you have the that that framework the policy framework the, uh, foreign exchange, uh, framework, Uh, and and and together with all other basic, uh, infrastructure requirements, right, like property rights, et cetera, et cetera, you should have a lot more, uh, investors in interested.

Speaker 0:
And so we've seen it in the renewables programme. But we think we could also do it in other other aspects of infrastructure within South Africa as well.

Speaker 0:
Thank you, Shafik. So, Musa, you as the chairperson of the Asset Owners Forum of South Africa, what is the role of the Asset Owners forum of South Africa in driving ahead change? Um, uh, addressing climate change And

Speaker 0:
what is the collaborative approach that you need to adopt? Um, with policy makers and the government.

Speaker 1:
Thanks, Chloe, for that question. So the the intention of the forum firstly, is to collaborate, uh, to speak as as as one. As as asset owners as retirement funds. But the the most important is engagement. We we can engage with the policy makers. We can engage with industry bo bodies as one voice, Uh, because we're all chasing the same objectives, it's to preserve the retirement

Speaker 1:
of our members and our stakeholders. Um, so we understand that if we invest sustainably, we can achieve the same outcomes, Um, and chasing investments in the infrastructure space and more focused being in renewable energy um, and the the jet P um, investment programme. That's one of the the examples that we're looking at. So we're searching for investments that are the renewable space

Speaker 1:
structure related investments. And we see how we can work alongside, uh, government, how we can assist government in in achieving the objectives of the country, as well as the objectives of our pension funds to realise, um, active returns so that we we show the sustainability of our funds at the same time the sustainability of the country and the economy and the the the environments that we live in. So it's a It's a dual mandate that that the the pension funds,

Speaker 1:
uh, hold as well as the responsibility that the the funds, as well as the forum itself speaking as a collective, feels that it needs to maintain on behalf of the forum as well as, uh, South Africa at large. But we remain focused at preserving the retirement savings of our members and ensuring the sustainability of these, um, investments through investing in the right sustainable investments, being renewable, energy infrastructure related,

Speaker 1:
renewable energy projects into the future. What we push the most is collaboration. And as Shafik has mentioned, we also try to attract foreign direct investment from like-minded institutions retirement France from across, uh the borders in the rest of Africa. And we will try our best to bring in like-minded institutions from across the globe to invest in South Africa in related infrastructure projects.

Speaker 0:
Thank you.

Speaker 0:
So So in order for the deployment of private capital projects need to need to be bankable. And we've spoken about this

Speaker 0:
lack of bankable projects. So is does that mean that they actually need to generate a financial return for investors? And how will the public private partnerships be able to fast track investments in green infrastructure?

Speaker 0:
No, I I think this question, um se is nicely in the the previous discussion with Mosa. Um, asset owners are looking at these private uh, public private partnerships. We we are already doing it. It's just that we were not aware of the collaboration. Uh, element of it. Um, you know, I think the the the the needs and the requirement of a pension fund

Speaker 0:
are such that you are put there to look after the affairs and the interest of the fund so immediately you have, um, people or our our Copa funds as public. Let let let me just separate those two. So you have public representatives that are,

Speaker 0:
uh, by nature. They are risk averse. They will not put money down a, uh uh, a hole, uh, without any significant returns. So you already have the security from, uh, representatives that sit on asset owners forum, for example, to ensure that that money is not, uh, misused. It's not used for any other means except to provide a return, uh, for their members. But I think the the the the

Speaker 0:
the transition to green, green economy, et cetera. It is for me is is secondary, um, in that once you have people that will ensure those assets are secure, safe and invested,

Speaker 0:
uh, the investment will, Will will ultimately fall now the private sector, The private sector come in with the necessary skills, skills, base knowledge and the project that we want that are bankable. Um towards the end of last year, the Asset Owners Forum did a survey amongst, uh, the large, uh,

Speaker 0:
pension funds. And, um, from the responses that that I have seen a lot of the larger pension funds are already allocating to your, um, renewable energy project. Um, uh, infrastructure, et cetera. So I I think that the the collaboration will be key because those are two entities that are largely driven, um, by the same, uh, requirement or the need for a, uh, investment return.

Speaker 0:
Now, uh, as I said earlier on the nature of people that sit on pension fund boards and how do they manage those assets should inspire and increase confidence for greater collaboration in, um, public private partnerships.

Speaker 0:
So what do you believe is the outlook for the role of assets owners in addressing climate change and the challenges that the globe faces?

Speaker 1:
Thanks, Chloe, For that question, the the outlook for asset owners is positive. I think asset owners have a positive role to to play, and it's a very big role to play in in that regard. Um, and we'll definitely continue playing that role. The reason I say so is that we we are the biggest investors, single largest investors, uh, on the stock exchange, also in the private equity space. So we will

Speaker 1:
will definitely lead by example in that space. But we have to do this by demonstrating that our investments are being made responsibly and demonstrate by communicating our message and the outcomes that we hope to achieve, as previous speakers have indicated. What are the social returns that we're getting from these? What is the impact on the environment of of our, um, responsible investments as well as the economic benefits? Because we must at all

Speaker 1:
times guarantee the sustainability of our funds, Uh, which is financial sustainability. But then, the offset that comes from that investment is what are the benefits to the environment socially to our members as responsible investors. So I do believe that we have a big role to play as, uh, asset managers, uh, asset allocators, and we will definitely continue playing that role and become active contributors in the whole debate Going forward.

Speaker 0:
Shafiq Musa. Thank you very much for sharing your insights. We appreciate your time